Zen and the art of talking waxing poetic about motorcycles on the internet - Page 2
Close

Zen and the art of talking waxing poetic about motorcycles on the internet

This is a discussion on Zen and the art of talking waxing poetic about motorcycles on the internet within the General forums, part of the Caferacer.net Forums category; I posted this on the the other thread before this one got created... Originally Posted by DesmoDog I read the book. I had to start ...

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 50
Like Tree35Likes

Thread: Zen and the art of talking waxing poetic about motorcycles on the internet

  1. #11
    Senior Member DesmoDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    SE MI, USA.
    Posts
    1,651
    I posted this on the the other thread before this one got created...

    Quote Originally Posted by DesmoDog View Post
    I read the book. I had to start it multiple times before I actually got all the through it. Not one of my faves and I remember very little of it now, maybe 15 -10 years later.

    Another book that was popular for a bit that I tried to read was Shop Class as Soulcraft. Never finished it. Someone bought it for me I think. It covered things my dad used to talk about (he was a shop teacher BTW) so I had high hopes but once I got into it, it was written way too much like a college thesis for my tastes. Basically the writing style annoyed me enough I gave up on it.

    "Rebuilding the Indian" was one motorcycle book I got through the first attempt. Don't remember much of that one either but at least it kept my interest at the time.

    Hmm... there was another about a guy that toured Italy on a Vespa. That one was interesting mostly because he went a lot of places I had just been. "Vroom with a view" I think it was called. I remember a few things he wrote bothered me because his experience didn't go along with mine and I thought he was whining. In any case it wasn't the knid of read that changes your life or outlook on things...
    -Craig
    The Mighty Monza Jr. Thread: https://www.caferacer.net/forum/proje...r-project.html

  2. #12
    Senior Member woodsman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    1,435
    I started to read it when it was first published but he was competing with Carlos Castaneda and Hunter S Thompson on my must read list. I'll have to take another run at it.

  3. #13
    Fk5
    Fk5 is offline
    Senior Member Fk5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Cloverly, MD
    Posts
    224
    To be fair, I don't remember Pirsig being so big on the riding as Zen thing. I haven't opened it in 20 years and I'm not completely sure that I ever finished it. My recollection was more a comparison of the guy that bought the best, paid to have it fixed by factory mechanics and enjoyed riding compared to the guy with the Japanese bike that learned to handle his own maintenance and considered it part of the costs and experience of riding. Then the whole thing devolves into comparing what constitutes "Quality" which is Pirsig's Zen buzzword and by his own definition cannot be defined.

    I am not strictly sure what I actually remember and what came from my Dad when he was handing us the book in the mid-70's and saying "read this"
    Last edited by Fk5; 07-18-2016 at 12:42 PM. Reason: How fucking fair am I?
    thechief86 likes this.

  4. Remove Advertisements
    CafeRacer.net
    Advertisements
     

  5. #14
    Senior Member Geeto67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    23,243
    Quote Originally Posted by Fk5 View Post
    To be fair, I don't remember Pirsig being so big on the riding as Zen thing. I haven't opened it in 20 years and I'm not completely sure that I ever finished it. My recollection was more a comparison of the guy that bought the best, paid to have it fixed by factory mechanics and enjoyed riding compared to the guy with the Japanese bike that learned to handle his own maintenance and considered it part of the costs and experience of riding. Then the whole thing devolves into comparing what constitutes "Quality" which is Pirsig's Zen buzzword and by his own definition cannot be defined.

    To be fair, I can never remember what I actually remember and what came from my Dad when he was handing us the book in the mid-70's and saying "read this"
    I think you got it pretty well, If he talks about zen and riding at all it's in a very abstract way for maybe 1-2 pages. The title is misleading, it's a philosophical discussion as to what constitutes a person's value structure.

    What is really interesting, and to be honest you have to be really educated to get this, is the comparison of classical to romantic approaches to life, similar to the view people had at the time to the different periods of art and history of the same names. However, most of you will recognize it as a person bitching that people today don't take the time to learn the old skills like they used to. SO it goes to show you that even 40 years ago people were still bitching about "kids today".
    Ews, 83XLX and pwalo like this.
    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
    - Samuel Beckett
    A tool is just an opportunity with a handle
    - Kevin Kelly

  6. #15
    Member Rich3010's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    England
    Posts
    90
    I'm no Buddhist or hippy so possibly the closet I get to feelin zen is about now sat on the patio in blazing sun (yep sun in England) with a pint of cold cider, a smoke and classic rock radio in the background :-)
    We're gonna need a bigger boat

  7. #16
    Ews
    Ews is offline
    Senior Member Ews's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Lewiston Idaho
    Posts
    1,316
    That is a good point thought, artisan level work is slowly fading away. Partially because it is time consuming and we live in an instant gratification society. Partially because no one is teaching it anymore. For instance, my best friends father is a Master Luthier (guitar builder) one of like 3 in the world who can do what he does (Ren Ferguson, google him if you are interested). Anyway, my friend left a $20/hr job to move home and apprentice under his father. Well his father was all about it at first, then decided he didn't want to share his secrets and such. Needles to say my friend was beyond frustrated. He now lives in North LA and is struggling to get his Ukulele shop off the ground. Meanwhile his father is now VP of Guild Guitars new acoustic dept. Ren is a great guy, but it is the mentality of not wanting to share know;edge that is killing off some the most artistic industries
    pwalo likes this.
    Dream as if you live forever, Live as if you die today.~ James Dean

    I feel the need, the need for speed.~ Mavrick (Tom Cruise before he was a big ol' bag of crazy)

  8. #17
    Senior Member Geeto67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    23,243
    Quote Originally Posted by Ews View Post
    That is a good point thought, artisan level work is slowly fading away. Partially because it is time consuming and we live in an instant gratification society. Partially because no one is teaching it anymore. For instance, my best friends father is a Master Luthier (guitar builder) one of like 3 in the world who can do what he does (Ren Ferguson, google him if you are interested). Anyway, my friend left a $20/hr job to move home and apprentice under his father. Well his father was all about it at first, then decided he didn't want to share his secrets and such. Needles to say my friend was beyond frustrated. He now lives in North LA and is struggling to get his Ukulele shop off the ground. Meanwhile his father is now VP of Guild Guitars new acoustic dept. Ren is a great guy, but it is the mentality of not wanting to share know;edge that is killing off some the most artistic industries

    I don't know if this is really true. I think we have more artisan level work than we have ever had in history, if you are willing to make some concessions like the use of sewing machine in place of hand stitching. And I think there has been a resurgence to learn new techniques, and to use more technology in new and interesting ways. I think the internet has given rise to independent craftsmen who can make a living at it where as before they could not in all areas of the arts (esp music).

    the problem with saying we are loosing skills is we really don't know how many skills have been lost in the past because they don't exist anymore. We know the ancient greeks made computational machines but nobody here has that same skill because it died out. Nor do we need it because we developed other skills that created computers. If you start to think about how many skills are lost to the ages you start to stare into the void of human history.

    As for your friend, we don't know the whole story there. Maybe his dad didn't want to teach him because they fought a lot and had different ideals. Who knows.
    pwalo likes this.
    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
    - Samuel Beckett
    A tool is just an opportunity with a handle
    - Kevin Kelly

  9. #18
    Ews
    Ews is offline
    Senior Member Ews's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Lewiston Idaho
    Posts
    1,316
    Quote Originally Posted by Geeto67 View Post
    I don't know if this is really true. I think we have more artisan level work than we have ever had in history, if you are willing to make some concessions like the use of sewing machine in place of hand stitching. And I think there has been a resurgence to learn new techniques, and to use more technology in new and interesting ways. I think the internet has given rise to independent craftsmen who can make a living at it where as before they could not in all areas of the arts (esp music).

    the problem with saying we are loosing skills is we really don't know how many skills have been lost in the past because they don't exist anymore. We know the ancient greeks made computational machines but nobody here has that same skill because it died out. Nor do we need it because we developed other skills that created computers. If you start to think about how many skills are lost to the ages you start to stare into the void of human history.

    As for your friend, we don't know the whole story there. Maybe his dad didn't want to teach him because they fought a lot and had different ideals. Who knows.
    I dont know the exact details, I have an outside looking in opinion. What I saw was the Ren had told us many times how he had worked hard for decades to get to where he was. Tim (my friend) has quite a lot of natural talent for the work, and I think there might have been some jealousy there. It was only a few years ago that Ren asked Tim to do some inlay work on a fret board, tim found out later that it was for a guitar built for Kiks Brooks of Brooks and Dunn, I think the total value of the thing was north of $30k. Tim made maybe a few hundred off the deal, interesting family dynamic there, long story.

    You do make a good point, how many skills have been lost due to lack of need? I will admit that the internet has given birth to many new trades, some cool, some just odd.
    Dream as if you live forever, Live as if you die today.~ James Dean

    I feel the need, the need for speed.~ Mavrick (Tom Cruise before he was a big ol' bag of crazy)

  10. #19
    Fk5
    Fk5 is offline
    Senior Member Fk5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Cloverly, MD
    Posts
    224
    I'm not so sure about the artisan thing either.

    I think that people think they can learn everything from youtube. Hell, my friend is raising his kid with that as his prime resource. Instead of specializing people just figure that when it is time I will learn how to do that. Whatever that is. I am certainly guilty of this. My dad was that kind of renaissance man before the internet and he is constantly laughing at all the mistakes and internet experts that he runs into that seem to simplify everything.

    Keep secrets to yourself is nothing new. If you learned the glassmaking trade in Murano and tried to leave the penalty was death. My own grandfather worked in restaurants his whole life and had some recipe for shrimp Cantonese that was legendary. One night, after my grandmother died when it was just the two of us, he asked me if I wanted to know how to make his shrimp Cantonese. Figuring it was a bonding moment with the old hardass, I said sure. He smiled, shrugged and said "Well, you're not gonna!"

    Regarding the losing skills point, was this the board that posted the wave reader piece? That was interesting and I guess basically that skill has pretty much been lost.

    Edit: Yep. This was the place
    https://www.caferacer.net/forum/gener...tml#post355390

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/ma...lots.html?_r=2
    Last edited by Fk5; 07-18-2016 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Found it

  11. #20
    Ews
    Ews is offline
    Senior Member Ews's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Lewiston Idaho
    Posts
    1,316
    Rounding back to Zen. I googled what it's definition is: a Japanese school of Mahayana Buddhism emphasizing the value of meditation and intuition.

    I don't know that one could meditate while riding, seems unsafe to me.
    Dream as if you live forever, Live as if you die today.~ James Dean

    I feel the need, the need for speed.~ Mavrick (Tom Cruise before he was a big ol' bag of crazy)

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. We were JUST talking about this guy!
    By 8ball in forum General
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-24-2014, 01:39 PM
  2. Since we are talking about brake rotors...
    By Pluto in forum Technical
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 05-10-2013, 06:31 PM
  3. so....how come we aren't talking about Nobby?
    By Geeto67 in forum General
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-17-2012, 07:22 AM
  4. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
    By Midwest FZ Rider in forum General
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 11-30-2011, 11:11 AM
  5. FCB 2008 sh*t talking thread
    By ROSKO in forum Vintage Motorcycle Racing
    Replies: 163
    Last Post: 05-04-2008, 05:31 PM