I guess we can look forward to the brand going down the tubes again....
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I guess we can look forward to the brand going down the tubes again....

This is a discussion on I guess we can look forward to the brand going down the tubes again.... within the General forums, part of the Caferacer.net Forums category; deadspin-quote-carrot-aligned-w-bgr-2 I was almost over being completely butthurt with ducati because of the plastic tank nonsense with my motorcycle, and a large part of that ...

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Thread: I guess we can look forward to the brand going down the tubes again....

  1. #1
    Senior Member Geeto67's Avatar
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    I guess we can look forward to the brand going down the tubes again....

    deadspin-quote-carrot-aligned-w-bgr-2

    I was almost over being completely butthurt with ducati because of the plastic tank nonsense with my motorcycle, and a large part of that was because after VW purchased them they went up in C-sat. Honestly, ducati can't be trusted to run themselves and they need a large mfg to oversee them and hold their feet to the fire so they don't start churning out garbage products again.

    I'll still never buy another new ducati.
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    Senior Member knappyfeet's Avatar
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    This dieselgate seems bigger than I thought.

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    Senior Member Hoofhearted's Avatar
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    The first thing that came to mind was where does the very expensive Lorenzo fit into the scheme of things?
    Don\'t cry because its over. Smile because it happened

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    Senior Member hillsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoofhearted View Post
    The first thing that came to mind was where does the very expensive Lorenzo fit into the scheme of things?

    Middle of the pack, it seems

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    Senior Member Geeto67's Avatar
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    Zing!!!!
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    Senior Member grandpaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knappyfeet View Post
    This dieselgate seems bigger than I thought.
    And all for what?

    To have .00001% less hydrocarbons in the U.S. atmosphere, while you need a weedwhacker to cut your way thru the air in 2/3 of the rest of the developed world.

    The punishment DOES NOT fit the "crime".
    K9Swine and thechief86 like this.
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    jcw
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    Senior Member jcw's Avatar
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    Nah. This is one of those government "levies" on big businesses.
    What they did to Toyota was way worse for no real fault found. It was an absolute joke.
    Carpets and accelerators=$1.5 billion fine. Wtf?
    Last edited by jcw; 04-28-2017 at 09:14 AM.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Geeto67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandpaul View Post
    And all for what?

    To have .00001% less hydrocarbons in the U.S. atmosphere, while you need a weedwhacker to cut your way thru the air in 2/3 of the rest of the developed world.

    The punishment DOES NOT fit the "crime".
    Can you back up your .00001%?

    Many people studying this have said that the environmental impact was actually rather significant despite it not being all that large. It's also not just US, VW was caught cheating worldwide, the US just had the most strict enforcement and the largest penalties so it hurt VW the worst, but they were cheating world wide.

    here are some actual sources rather than your made up number:

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...mental-damage/
    experts agree that nitrogen oxide (pdf) is a nasty pollutant. Once released into the air it quickly converts into nitrogen dioxide—a reddish-brown gas with a pungent odor—and then absorbs sunlight to transform into the yellow-brown haze that blankets cities. It is this smog that can exacerbate dozens of health problems, including asthma, bronchitis and emphysema. Alternatively, it can be washed into the ground in the form of acid rain, which can kill plants and animals. Once the damage is done “there is no antidote,” says Yiannis Levendis, an engineering professor at Northeastern University who focuses on diesel emissions.
    The news is not tragic for those living in the U.S., where the portion of diesel-powered cars is small (roughly 1 percent). But in Europe that number is much higher, clocking in at roughly 50 percent. In some European cities there is already so much nitrogen dioxide that it is “toxic in its own right,” Heywood says. But that was prior to the scandal. VW just upped the dosage.
    https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/w...of-dieselgate/
    Published in the research journal Environmental Pollution, the study calculated damage using a metric called disability-adjusted life years. Based on a cumulative output of 520 kilotons of nitrogen oxides beyond legal limits, the researchers suggested that citizens worldwide have lost almost 45,000 combined years of healthy living as a result of illness or death.
    Dieselgate's impact is measured at more than $39 billion. The study says that if the vehicles are not recalled, and continue to drive on our roads, that number will balloon to $102 billion. It is highly unlikely that Volkswagen will be asked to pay the whole sum of its environmental impact, especially when that value is the result of a single paper's work.

    I don't buy this "punishment doesn't fit the crime" bullshit Let's go over the "crimes":

    - They lied to consumers. They marketed and sold these cars as "clean diesels" and touted the mpg and environmental benefits. So that is just straight ripping people off and justifies a lot of the buy buck punishment in and of itself. They had to be punished for that, no way around it. The standard way to punish in this area is to offer a return/refund which is exactly what happened.

    - They knowingly cheated the government tests. Whether you agree with them or not, these standards exist for a reason and they were enacted to solve for a problem. Since they were enacted people's respiratory related diseases across the population have decreased on the whole. https://www.epa.gov/clean-air-act-ov...health#breathe
    that's significant. They had to pay for that and the punitive costs justify that.

    - The harm was ongoing. The vehicles were continuing to harm the environment the more they get used, and at the time of discovery the cars will still being sold. The cars needed to be taken off the road to prevent the ongoing harm. If you cheat the government you do not get a pass to keep harming the environment. It's only fair that the vehicles get removed from the road and repaired or taken out of service.

    - Some of the harm is permanent. The tab for permanent harm is usually picked up by the government because with past harm there usually isn't someone to hold accountable. In this case there is clearly someone who can beheld accountable, so they have to pay. If you are saying your neighbor does donuts on your lawn he doesn't have to pay for the damage? same thing, VW did donuts on the worlds lawn, let them pay for any clean up efforts. They aren't even going to pay for nearly as much as needs to be done, they are getting off light.

    VW is lucky the US government didn't cripple them into insolvency, and honestly I kind wished they did. GM got caught for similar emissions cheating in the 1990's and it crippled the company to the point where the effects could still be felt all the way until the bailout happened. There is some discussion now that GM might have also been cheating so this may be a bigger problem than just VW.
    Last edited by Geeto67; 04-28-2017 at 09:51 AM.
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  10. #9
    Senior Member Cyorg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcw View Post
    Nah. This is one of those government "levies" on big businesses.
    What they did to Toyota was way worse for no real fault found. It was an absolute joke.
    Carpets and accelerators=$1.5 billion fine. Wtf?
    While I agree that those "government levies" exist and some (maybe most) manufactures will just roll over and pay them, because they just don't want the years of bad press they get from fighting it....not to mention the cost. I believe that VW royally fucked up on this one and they should be collectively shot and pissed on.

    ps.. and the folks at Ducati are a bunch of cheap twats.
    Last edited by Cyorg; 04-28-2017 at 12:39 PM.
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    Senior Member DesmoDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcw View Post
    Nah. This is one of those government "levies" on big businesses.
    What they did to Toyota was way worse for no real fault found. It was an absolute joke.
    Carpets and accelerators=$1.5 billion fine. Wtf?
    To put a little perspective on that, Toyota's profit for fiscal 2014 was $18.1 billion dollars.

    If no real fault was found, why did Toyota redesign the gas pedal and implement a strategy where power was cut to the engine if both the brake and gas were depressed?

    I don't mean to argue what fine would be appropriate or how much "yeah, shit happens" type of answers we're supposed to accept, but A) the fine didn't bring them to their knees and B) they thought improvements could/should be made so there was at least smoke if not actual fire.
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