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  1. #31
    Senior Member jaguar's Avatar
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    How did we get onto shitting on engineers?!?!
    I am Derby\'s Bitch


    Some times things come around that are so singularly inept it gives you a whole new appreciation for the ept

  2. #32
    Senior Member CaTacL1sm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ews View Post
    Desmo, I have a theory. For every year a person spends in the military, it ages your body 2. So I spent 8 years in and I'm 37 actual years.
    I disagree... I've been in for 9 years now and feel better than I did when I was 22. Granted it helps that I'm a goddamn leg (airborne is obsolete anyways, bring on the stealth gliders).
    Quote Originally Posted by alwhite00 View Post
    Fuck all of you guys. Get into your little circle jerk and have fun. Thought this may be a pretty cool message board but damn, you guys are assholes.

  3. #33
    Ews
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    Senior Member Ews's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaTacL1sm View Post
    I disagree... I've been in for 9 years now and feel better than I did when I was 22. Granted it helps that I'm a goddamn leg (airborne is obsolete anyways, bring on the stealth gliders).
    Maybe I'm just a giant pussy then lol. I think part of my problem is that it took me until I was 30 to realize that I am not super man and it's ok to ask for help when doing heavy lifting and hard work
    Dream as if you live forever, Live as if you die today.~ James Dean

    I feel the need, the need for speed.~ Mavrick (Tom Cruise before he was a big ol' bag of crazy)

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  5. #34
    Senior Member DesmoDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaguar View Post
    How did we get onto shitting on engineers?!?!
    It comes up most any time you have technicians talking about their jobs. Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of great technicians and a lot of bad engineers. In my experience the engineers who rail on technicians usually aren't at the top of their game. On a related note - I've had numerous techs tell me they could do an engineer's job... and then ask me what engineers do all day. Think about that for a minute. I made an earlier comment on self proclaimed experts. It applies to other personalities too.

    I've seen everyone from techs to PhDs from within our company get put into a development engineering position and not last a year. Education doesn't determine who's going to be good or bad at it. Nor does title. That said, if as an engineering manager you have an engineering group that is continually creating designs that need to be changed by techs in order to work, you've been doing a pretty shitty job of training your engineers. And/or have a pretty poor understanding of what an engineering degree provides someone. Along those lines, every company I've ever worked for/with has had design standards or something like them. There are rules/procedures/processes to follow in development that are specifically meant to avoid ending up with designs that are costly/impossible to manufacture. There are design reviews with various groups within the company during the process. No one person (or group) can be expected to know everything about that particular product to the point they can do it on their own based on what is taught in school, it doesn't work that way. "Exhaust development 101" wasn't an option in my school anyway. I find it pretty shocking that Michelin is set up where the techs are doing the final development work but I've never worked with them. Must be a clusterfuck of an organization.

    Every part on every production bike ever made has been a compromise. I don't care if it's a Kymco or a Ducati. Somebody had to make a choice that favored one advantage over another. Because of that, any bike/part can be "improved" by anyone who has a different set of priorities. It has nothing to do with the education or job title of the person who developed that part to begin with. That said, if you haven't got a clue why something is the way it is to begin with, you probably aren't the person who's going to be making an improvement by modifying it.

  6. #35
    Senior Member CaTacL1sm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ews View Post
    Maybe I'm just a giant pussy then lol. I think part of my problem is that it took me until I was 30 to realize that I am not super man and it's ok to ask for help when doing heavy lifting and hard work
    Stuff happens, sometimes you can't avoid getting broken. The thing that drove me nuts was when we'd get kids fresh out of AIT with a permanent profile... or when all of the S1 clerks have permanent profiles. What injured them? accidentally shredding everyone's awards and leave forms?

    My goal is to make it to 20 years with a PUHLES of 111111 and 0% disability. I'm not going to be one of those shitbags who goes and gets "diagnosed" with sleep apnea and erectile disfunction (just to boost percentages) either.
    Quote Originally Posted by alwhite00 View Post
    Fuck all of you guys. Get into your little circle jerk and have fun. Thought this may be a pretty cool message board but damn, you guys are assholes.

  7. #36
    Senior Member jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesmoDog View Post
    It comes up most any time you have technicians talking about their jobs. Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of great technicians and a lot of bad engineers. In my experience the engineers who rail on technicians usually aren't at the top of their game. On a related note - I've had numerous techs tell me they could do an engineer's job... and then ask me what engineers do all day. Think about that for a minute. I made an earlier comment on self proclaimed experts. It applies to other personalities too.

    I've seen everyone from techs to PhDs from within our company get put into a development engineering position and not last a year. Education doesn't determine who's going to be good or bad at it. Nor does title. That said, if as an engineering manager you have an engineering group that is continually creating designs that need to be changed by techs in order to work, you've been doing a pretty shitty job of training your engineers. And/or have a pretty poor understanding of what an engineering degree provides someone. Along those lines, every company I've ever worked for/with has had design standards or something like them. There are rules/procedures/processes to follow in development that are specifically meant to avoid ending up with designs that are costly/impossible to manufacture. There are design reviews with various groups within the company during the process. No one person (or group) can be expected to know everything about that particular product to the point they can do it on their own based on what is taught in school, it doesn't work that way. "Exhaust development 101" wasn't an option in my school anyway. I find it pretty shocking that Michelin is set up where the techs are doing the final development work but I've never worked with them. Must be a clusterfuck of an organization.

    Every part on every production bike ever made has been a compromise. I don't care if it's a Kymco or a Ducati. Somebody had to make a choice that favored one advantage over another. Because of that, any bike/part can be "improved" by anyone who has a different set of priorities. It has nothing to do with the education or job title of the person who developed that part to begin with. That said, if you haven't got a clue why something is the way it is to begin with, you probably aren't the person who's going to be making an improvement by modifying it.

    I was more just busting balls early in the morning.

    Engineers vs Technicians will always be a thing. While there is a lot of overlap in skills, they do remain very different roles in any organization.
    In my experience (and not just because it applies to my situation) I have found that the best Engineers I work with were once Technicians in some way.
    Can not stress how important hands on knowledge is in many roles. It is a hard thing to prove via a resume and even harder to pick up on in an interview, but there is value.

    I wish there was some better way to rank "ability to learn".
    To me it separates the people that were trained how to do a task from those that understand how something functions.
    A company needs both, but in different areas.
    I am Derby\'s Bitch


    Some times things come around that are so singularly inept it gives you a whole new appreciation for the ept

  8. #37
    Senior Member Mike 40M's Avatar
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    As an retired engineer I've seen both technicians with thumbs in the middle of the hand and engineers who designed parts impossible to neither manufacture nor service. But some brilliant ones too. Enough of that.
    How to handle the angle grinder happy?
    Once, in another forum, someone just found a cheap, original Jawa twostroke and asked for ideas on how to remake it.
    I suggested he should fix it, ride it and fix upcoming problems. After that three choices.
    1. Find that he didn't like it. Then sell it (easier if original)
    2. Find you like it and think it's cool riding an original bike.
    3. Find you like it but make some mods so that it suits you better.
    4 years later, he's still riding it happily in original trim.

  9. #38
    Senior Member 8ball's Avatar
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    That’s pretty much the mantra here:
    ”Get it running, fix what’s broke, make it safe (in original trim). Ride the crap out of it, and let the bike tell you what needs to be changed or improved. Deal with cosmetics last.”

    What the normal response is: “Y’all can’t see the vision. Y’all are old and don’t know how it’s done these days. That’s not how the do it on Manbun Cafe Racer TV!”

    Most of the time they show up, and it’s their very first bike, and they have no idea what a good or bad handling motorcycle feels like. They get told five times not to hack up their bike and they just keep asking “What if I hack it up THIS way, then? What do ya think?” It gets tiresome, and as is common with old guys, we get crabby.
    I always find a soap box useful to get on my high horse.

    Quote Originally Posted by roccitycafe View Post
    .... same thing with furniture, it doesn't have to be straight or not wobble, or keep thing from rolling off it, or not collapse when sat upon, it's personal taste man... if I want a dining room set that endangers the life of my dinner party guests, then it doesn't need second hand approval

    My GS550 Build Thread

  10. #39
    Senior Member CaTacL1sm's Avatar
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    So funny enough, I started reading this today and it's not as hipster as you'd think (it's actually really insightful)

    Quote Originally Posted by alwhite00 View Post
    Fuck all of you guys. Get into your little circle jerk and have fun. Thought this may be a pretty cool message board but damn, you guys are assholes.

  11. #40
    Senior Member DesmoDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaTacL1sm View Post
    So funny enough, I started reading this today and it's not as hipster as you'd think (it's actually really insightful)

    Someone gave me that book when it first came out. I started reading it, but it read way too much like a college thesis. Couldn't finish it. The thing is, my dad was a shop teacher and had a lot of the same views this guy has, so the subject matter interests me. Still couldn't finish it.

    Maybe I'll give it another shot someday. It took me multiple tries to get through Zen and the art too. (And I can't remember a thing from that book other than the concept of gumption traps)
    -Craig
    The Mighty Monza Jr. Thread: https://www.caferacer.net/forum/proje...r-project.html

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