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1984 Honda Shadow Vt700c Cafe Racer

This is a discussion on 1984 Honda Shadow Vt700c Cafe Racer within the Project Builds forums, part of the Caferacer.net Forums category; The shock needs to be more horizontal. Check out the geometry on the pitbike pic. No matter how far you compress it the shock is ...

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  1. #21
    Senior Member raven's Avatar
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    The shock needs to be more horizontal. Check out the geometry on the pitbike pic. No matter how far you compress it the shock is still being compressed. Your current geometry would allow it to start moving in its pivots rather than compressing. But you have the right idea.
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    Bike:
    Buell X1
    Honda S90 (box of parts)
    Honda CB750C (runs)
    The Others (mostly rolling wounded)

    My collar may be a little frayed, and maybe I need a shoeshine. But nobody\'s got a mortgage on my soul. I own it. Free and clear. -Phil Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Senior Member jaguar's Avatar
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    Honestly I stayed out of this thread. Really for no other reason then ive been going to meetings at this local plate. Its called "be nicer on the internet"
    So far its a great group of guys, im on step three.

    anyway

    Normally I would start out by asking a basic question of "why?"
    To me work for the sake of work is stupid.
    I might even pull an old standby of "if you have to ask these questions you dont have the skill to do the project"
    But again that would be pointless and mean.

    I read the question just like I hear any ME that is still in physics two. In this time the world is a vacuum and every component is treated like a particle.


    In my head you have two directions you can go with this project

    ONE
    Just copy and existing design. Kinda a waste of time because this is fabrication, not engineering. You will need to get a base line on what your bike had from the factory and make sure those perimeters are kept after the mono shock is installed.
    Most of your time will be spend googling and 90% of the "builds" you will look to copy are complete shit. some are scary, others are just dumb.

    TWO
    Actually learn something about motorcycle suspensions in an attempt to improve them.
    You cant make something better until you understand it the way it is.

    Tony Foale wrote a book on motorcycle suspension. In it he talks about some of his very early work with mono shocks. withworth will stop in and talk about how he was a hack or didnt win races or what not. skim past that. The book reads like a textbook so it should connect with you.
    There are a few other technical books out there that will talk about the geometry of motorcycles. It will be important that you at the very least understand the basic terms and how the specs of those terms effect the way the bike functions.
    You will also find out that mono shock does not just mean one shock. There are a million ways to move a sing arm with only one shock. Do you want it mounted straight to the frame? have linkage? shock moves in how many planes? symmetrical? ect These will effect the linear movement of the shock as well as the required spring rate.






    See what Im getting at? its not just mounting a shock and calling it done.

    Then we can talk about how this system is going to be measured, or maybe in your case how it will be graded.
    How do you plan to show it is better? If a performance thing then methinks you have a bad platform. just weight? then how are you going to isolate just the differences in the suspension and not the other BS that was randomly cut off?




    I think its great that you actually want to make something. To many engineers dont know the working end of a screw driver.
    Is there an SAE team on campus? I worked with the formula and baja teams. great times and we learned alot about fab and engineering.
    RetroRider and Star Lord like this.
    I am Derby\'s Bitch


    Some times things come around that are so singularly inept it gives you a whole new appreciation for the ept

  3. #23
    Senior Member TCed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star Lord View Post
    Hello fellas,
    . I have a good idea how to go about it. .....................
    So my questions are...

    Where should I start?
    Has anyone ever put a mono-shock on a shadow?
    How did you do it?
    Recommendations for which mono-shock?

    Just let me know if you guys want to see pictures of the bike (if that will help with the questions)?

    Thanks guys
    Sounds like you're in way over your head. I'd strongly suggest going back to a conventional rear twin shock installation. spend some time learning all the suspension options you can have with the original set up vs. heading off in a mono shock scenario. As you can read by the replies you've received suspension isn't a one time design and use exercise.

    Jaguar has a very good reccomendation, get others from your engineering school involved.
    ed
    Last edited by TCed; 09-10-2014 at 09:00 AM. Reason: added stuff.

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  5. #24
    Banned Witworth's Avatar
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    98% of "monoshock conversions" I have seen on the internet are poorly "designed", badly fabricated and borderline lethal in use.

    Tony Foale the frame "guru", is about 99.5% more skilled than the attempts and junk builds on "café racer" websites. I'm not a Foale fan, but he's Einstein compared to virtually all the monoshock builders I've seen on bike forums.

    You are dealing with a can of worms that will turn into a bucket of snakes, when you blink and turn the other way. Like magic.

    It took the major Japanese bike factories about ten years of road bike production to get them to a good performing, and safe standard.
    I think you need to click "default" and go back to where you decided to fit a monoshock.

    Then buy a good set of twin shocks (like Work's Performance or Hagons) , and make a safe, true subframe and shock mounts like this guy did:

    https://www.caferacer.net/forum/proje...afe-racer.html

    M/C chassis engineering is not rocket science , but if it was easy, everyone would be as good as Fritz Egli, Mert Lawwill or Dick Mann.

    Danger, is my business.

  6. #25
    Senior Member Teazer's Avatar
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    Draw it up as just four points. Swinagrm pivot, wheel axle, shock mounts (both end).

    Darw an arc for wheel movement from full droop to fully up, and the corresponding arc for the shock mount on the swingarm. Now draw in the shock position at each end of the swingarm travel and say 2 intermediate points. Measure the shock length at each of those positions ( and add more if required). You should be able to see if the rate of shock compression is getting more for each subsequent increment of swingarm rotation (rising rate) or getting to be less, or does it go over center? Go from say 10 degree droop to 120mm of rear wheel vertical travel as a range.

    That won't give you all the answers on shock loading but will give you a clearer picture of how it all works.
    TCed likes this.

  7. #26
    Member Star Lord's Avatar
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    I want to thank everyone for all the helpful comments and all the resources you guys are pointing me to.

    @Jaguar Congratulations keeping going step one is always the hardest!
    I dont have the skills, I'm learning them.... That being said, Thank you for giving me the time of day and helping me out. I hope you can tell I'm in it for "option two" (to learn something)
    I got the updated(2006 vs 1984) version of the book by Tony Foale so expensive (glad I didnt buy it). I'll be getting into it in the coming days.PS:this book looks awesome just from a quick skim..
    I looked into SAE seems like an engineering group/organization I will check if my school has any connections.

    @TCed In over my head you say...... Good.
    I will be looking into what Jag said and once I got a grip on all this I'm doin it Thank for the free motivation.

    @Witworth you said: "It took the major Japanese bike factories about ten years of road bike production to get them to a good performing, and safe standard."
    ....... For a mass produced bikes!
    Im just building one, so if you factor in a few mistakes and some time for research, I shouldn't do too bad in 12 months.
    10 years for marketable mass production bikes* VS 12months for 1 safe, fun and well built bike.....
    Come on I know you're feelin it too big guy
    However I did look into that GS 750 that is a sweet project, might have some other useful tips.

    @Teazer Im sorry I sure its probably my inexperience, but I'm having a hard time visualizing or understanding the picture you're painting. Any chance you could post something similar or an example(a visual) to give me an idea? I will keep trying to read it, draw it and get it. Thank you for you help.

    Hope I do you guys proud.
    Delson Da Silva,
    Mechanical Engineering, BS 2019
    Boston, Massachusetts
    My projects: www.projects.djd.im | [email protected]

  8. #27
    Senior Member jaguar's Avatar
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    Can't think out side of the box until you fully understand a basic box.
    you need to identify what your goal is and how you are going to measure the change.
    I am Derby\'s Bitch


    Some times things come around that are so singularly inept it gives you a whole new appreciation for the ept

  9. #28
    Senior Member raven's Avatar
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    Look up "free body diagram". Basically you map out your points and pivots and draw vectors (arrows) to describe forces.
    Bike:
    Buell X1
    Honda S90 (box of parts)
    Honda CB750C (runs)
    The Others (mostly rolling wounded)

    My collar may be a little frayed, and maybe I need a shoeshine. But nobody\'s got a mortgage on my soul. I own it. Free and clear. -Phil Lovecraft

  10. #29
    Banned Witworth's Avatar
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    Big Jap factories may have made hundreds of R&D monoshock bikes, that failed during testing, before producing durable and safe production bikes. They did not make the first one, and expect it to work properly: You do. You only have one chance to do it safely.

    I think you look at a monoshock system, and just see a shock bolted in and welded in their somehow, and assume it's easy, and you can do it. You are assuming a hell of a lot.

    I'd done plenty enough suspension modification work on road and race bikes, usually with perfectly acceptable, and sometimes great results. I've also had one or two problems that surfaced that you would never expect to occur when planning or completing the job.

    Phone Work's Performance, tell them what you are trying to do, ask for their advice regarding shocks, and then construct a properly engineered subframe and twin shock system. Right now you are just wallowing in assumptions and Mickey Mouse engineering.

    That GS750 build thread, BTW, is the only M/C that I have seen on the "cafe racer" internet that has had a safe and properly engineered twin shock subframe fabricated and constructed, IMHO.

    Danger, is my business.

  11. #30
    Senior Member Farmer_John's Avatar
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    ...and if you believe this guy, my wife is Morgan Fairchild...

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