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Ideas welcome to build out of an 83 honda v45 interceptor

This is a discussion on Ideas welcome to build out of an 83 honda v45 interceptor within the Project Builds forums, part of the Caferacer.net Forums category; Originally Posted by DesmoDog Now you're getting into what is the definition of a "cafe racer"? I think it's fair to say that putting an ...

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  1. #21
    Senior Member Geeto67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesmoDog View Post
    Now you're getting into what is the definition of a "cafe racer"? I think it's fair to say that putting an Acura engine in a Honda Civic is the essence of hot rodding, but anyone who thinks a Civic can be a hot rod has never spent time around traditional hot rodders. You'll be teased if you call a street rod a hot rod. You'll be shunned if you call a Honda a hot rod. As well you should be. The term defines more than the existence of performance mods. The era/style plays into it too.
    Anybody who has spent their time around traditional hot rodders that teased or shunned people have wasted their time and haven't spent time around anybody who was worth their time. Talk to even the old timers who were doing this in the 40's and they are usually more open about that stuff and are often impressed by the engine swaps going on now with import cars. The dipshits who call them selves "traditional" hot rodders and parade around in rusty piece of shit model As and wear the uniform of a 50's greaser are a joke. That is not something to be taken seriously, no matter how much their chick looks like bettie page.

    No, An Intercepter will never make a good cafe racer. It could make an awesome race replica. It will never be a cafe racer. Just as a Civic will never be a Hot Rod. You can chop it, you can put a more powerful engine in it, you can put vintage gauges, lake pipes, and reversed chrome wheels on it, but it still won't be a Hot Rod. Sure, you might say you're "hot rodding" it, but you sure as hell aren't going to hang out on hot rod forums looking for tips and tricks for it.
    Is it a racing replica that the factory didn't build? yes? then it is a "cafe racer". I remember as a kid the friends of my older brothers who had big superbikes and interceptors decked out in rattle can race liveries with death trap upgrades and contingency stickers and they called them selves "cafe racers" in the late 80's and into the early 90's. Internet forms are just the logical extension of bench racing - tall tales and bullshit. Bikes are for riding. If you are living your life by the label of the thing instead of the essence of the thing you are cheating yourself.


    A VF500 can make a great race rep. There are common threads for performance mods between older bikes and newer bikes, and yes the lines get blurred on what is what, but a VF500 will never be a traditional cafe racer. That doesn't mean it needs to be shunned here, but you have to expect that, on a cafe racer forum, saying you want to make a cafe racer out of a VF500 is going to meet resistance.
    It isn't shunned here, the guy came in posted one line and then disappeared. If he came back and said "I want to build a freddie spencer tribute to the two strokes like the one posted above" I am pretty sure he would get a warm welcome. The problem is, and this is always a problem here, that when a newbie posts the term "cafe racer" it is assumed that they mean a bumpstop seat and clubman bars - and everybody jumps to that conclusion and verbally kicks the guy in the nuts. They may not be wrong, and it does seem effective at culling the "traditional" dipshits out of this place for the most part so I don't really know where I was going other than to say - if you respect the core philosophy what else matters?

    kids and lifestyle idiots talk about "Cafe racers", guys who like fast old junk talk about going fast.
    Last edited by Geeto67; 08-13-2015 at 08:25 AM.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member parkwood60's Avatar
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    If I am "cafeing" or "cafe out" -ing, you will find me sipping an espresso and eating some finger food at a little table on the sidewalk.
    Last edited by parkwood60; 08-13-2015 at 11:07 AM.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member DesmoDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geeto67 View Post
    Anybody who has spent their time around traditional hot rodders that teased or shunned people have wasted their time and haven't spent time around anybody who was worth their time. Talk to even the old timers who were doing this in the 40's and they are usually more open about that stuff and are often impressed by the engine swaps going on now with import cars. The dipshits who call them selves "traditional" hot rodders and parade around in rusty piece of shit model As and wear the uniform of a 50's greaser are a joke. That is not something to be taken seriously, no matter how much their chick looks like bettie page.
    How many of these guys who were doing it in the 40s would call a Honda with an Acura engine a hot rod? Granted there is the affectionate use of the term, but if someone came up to an old timer and said "I want to build a hot rod" just about everyone is going to think '32 Ford, not V8 Miata. My mom never looked like Betty Page (she's a blonde Norwegian for cripe sakes), and my dad never looked like a greaser but back in the day he did have an old Ford with a Mercury engine in it and if you mentioned "hot rods" to him he wasn't going start to talking about the Lotus engine he helped me rebuild for my first project car. Or the Porsche Speedster he lusted after when he was stationed in Germany. yeah, hot rodder's interests extended past '32 Fords but use the term "hot rod" around them these days and and their first thought probably isn't something made in this century.



    Is it a racing replica that the factory didn't build? yes? then it is a "cafe racer". I remember as a kid the friends of my older brothers who had big superbikes and interceptors decked out in rattle can race liveries with death trap upgrades and contingency stickers and they called them selves "cafe racers" in the late 80's and into the early 90's. Internet forms are just the logical extension of bench racing - tall tales and bullshit. Bikes are for riding. If you are living your life by the label of the thing instead of the essence of the thing you are cheating yourself.
    I realize we've never met but do you honestly think I'm living my life by "cafe" anything? The only bike I own that is even REMOTELY "cafe" anything has been described by me here as a joke. It has single digit horsepower. It's for shits and grins. The terms I use for things don't define my life any more than your username defines yours. Billy can build a bobber out of an S1000RR for all I care. When I opine I don't think it's a bobber, it doesn't mean Billy's BMW bobber build betrays basic bobber builder essences, it means I think it's stupid to build a bobber out of a modern sportbike because, among other things, "bobber" implies a certain style and era of bike to me.

    It isn't shunned here, the guy came in posted one line and then disappeared. If he came back and said "I want to build a freddie spencer tribute to the two strokes like the one posted above" I am pretty sure he would get a warm welcome. The problem is, and this is always a problem here, that when a newbie posts the term "cafe racer" it is assumed that they mean a bumpstop seat and clubman bars - and everybody jumps to that conclusion and verbally kicks the guy in the nuts. They may not be wrong, and it does seem effective at culling the "traditional" dipshits out of this place for the most part so I don't really know where I was going other than to say - if you respect the core philosophy what else matters?
    I didn't say it was shunned, I said it didn't need to be shunned. The implication (intended) to be hey, let's talk about what to do with it but "cafe racer"? no. And that goes back to "what is a cafe racer". You're definition is different than mine because, yes, mine does include an implied style. Doesn't mean I live my life by a label, doesn't mean I'm cutting the subframes off all my Ducatis when I get home, doesn't mean I'm wearing skinny jeans and a vintage open face helmet, all it means is to me the term implies an era/style. Also doesn't mean there aren't contradictions and exceptions because, like you, I don't live my life around the term.

    As I think I already mentioned, you don't typically go to a hot rod forum to ask about modifying (or dare I say, hot rodding) your Civic. Doesn't mean there aren't hot rod forums that won't talk about using NOS on an engine, any engine, but it wouldn't be the first stop for most Civic owners. You can talk essence all day long but you'll have a hard time convincing me that the guy who is only interested in going faster on his non-current bike is going to search for a cafe racer forum to get his info from.

    kids and lifestyle idiots talk about "Cafe racers", guys who like fast old junk talk about going fast.
    Yet here we are on a cafe racer forum debating what defines a cafe racer. Neither of us are kids, BTW...

    Terms imply things. Show me an official definition of "cafe racer" and we can go from there. Asking how to make your '80s sportbike into a cafe racer implies, to me, you want it to look retro. Yes, the term implies a style to me. As it does to most everyone else I know.

    Ya know, while typing this up something else was in the back of my mind. Guys were modifying bikes to go faster long before the term cafe racer came to be. This whole "essence" thing wasn't invented by the cafe racers, they were involved in an "essence" that had been around since the first bike was built. The "cafe racer" whatever lays no claim to the "essence" of improving performance any more than the guys who took their clues from board track racers. So why is it I have to buy into this thought that "cafe racer" is all about going faster and if you put a certain style into the equation you're an idiot/crossdresser/poser/hipster/etc? No, you haven't said that but it seems to be the underlying secret of some of the loyal guard here. The term implies an era to me, and with that era is a typical style.
    Last edited by DesmoDog; 08-13-2015 at 01:01 PM.
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  5. #24
    Senior Member Geeto67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesmoDog View Post
    How many of these guys who were doing it in the 40s would call a Honda with an Acura engine a hot rod? Granted there is the affectionate use of the term, but if someone came up to an old timer and said "I want to build a hot rod" just about everyone is going to think '32 Ford, not V8 Miata. My mom never looked like Betty Page (she's a blonde Norwegian for cripe sakes), and my dad never looked like a greaser but back in the day he did have an old Ford with a Mercury engine in it and if you mentioned "hot rods" to him he wasn't going start to talking about the Lotus engine he helped me rebuild for my first project car. Or the Porsche Speedster he lusted after when he was stationed in Germany. yeah, hot rodder's interests extended past '32 Fords but use the term "hot rod" around them these days and and their first thought probably isn't something made in this century.
    How many of those guys are left? I remember reading a lot of interviews in the 1990's with guys like Ed Iskenderian, Robert Williams, Pete Chaporis, Gray Baskerville, etc...and they all seems to embrace and make the comparison with the "um and coming" honda tuner stuff. Hot Rod magazine as covered honda and import stuff in the past including v8 swapped civics, 2jz swaps into camaros, v8 swapped porsches, etc... and if you want to go back to the 60's plenty of v8 into foreign car swaps (healys, jaguars, etc). My father, who was one of those guys in the 50's and 60's refers to that stuff as hot rods just like they were model A's, and some of his buddies do to - so you can find a common usage going both ways. My point is the guys I find being "elitist" about this crap are usually the guys that weren't there, aren't racing, and aren't people who focus on the performance, they are the guys who start 1950's style car clubs with matching jackets and walk around parking lots filled with rusty a-bones with rolled up jeans, ducktails, and wayfairers.

    I realize we've never met but do you honestly think I'm living my life by "cafe" anything? The only bike I own that is even REMOTELY "cafe" anything has been described by me here as a joke. It has single digit horsepower. It's for shits and grins. The terms I use for things don't define my life any more than your username defines yours. Billy can build a bobber out of an S1000RR for all I care. When I opine I don't think it's a bobber, it doesn't mean Billy's BMW bobber build betrays basic bobber builder essences, it means I think it's stupid to build a bobber out of a modern sportbike because, among other things, "bobber" implies a certain style and era of bike to me.
    No I don't at all but I was speaking generally. You were commenting generally about the state of the hobby and I was responding in kind. I didn't mean for you to take it personally. I happen to agree with you on the era thing a little bit but these things are fluid. If bobbers continued until the modern era it would be hard to argue with an S1000RR bobber but it didn't - those bikes died out and weren't resurrected until the 1990s. However, from personal experience the "cafe racer" continued past the 1960's in england, by a lot of the same people with a lot of the same core values. I caught the tail end of it as a kid and to me the era of the cafe racer ended in 1992 when race replica sport bikes became cheap in the used market and core values shifted. It was something I personally witnessed but also if you look at the guys into superbikes there is a lot of cross over in philosophy and execution.



    I didn't say it was shunned, I said it didn't need to be shunned. The implication (intended) to be hey, let's talk about what to do with it but "cafe racer"? no. And that goes back to "what is a cafe racer". You're definition is different than mine because, yes, mine does include an implied style. Doesn't mean I live my life by a label, doesn't mean I'm cutting the subframes off all my Ducatis when I get home, doesn't mean I'm wearing skinny jeans and a vintage open face helmet, all it means is to me the term implies an era/style. Also doesn't mean there aren't contradictions and exceptions because, like you, I don't live my life around the term.
    Again, not a personal attack. I have been shunned at those shows for having a car 1 or 2 years off (a lot of those shows have a 1965 cutoff date and my 1967 GTO and my buddies 1966 impala have been rejected many times). It's stupid to judge this stuff with a year cut off or a 30 second glance. When people start to focus on being elitist and not the substance of what makes the hobby great it sucks, pure and simple.


    As I think I already mentioned, you don't typically go to a hot rod forum to ask about modifying (or dare I say, hot rodding) your Civic. Doesn't mean there aren't hot rod forums that won't talk about using NOS on an engine, any engine, but it wouldn't be the first stop for most Civic owners. You can talk essence all day long but you'll have a hard time convincing me that the guy who is only interested in going faster on his non-current bike is going to search for a cafe racer forum to get his info from.
    I have seen that happen. It doesn't happen often but it has happened. I don't happen to think internet knowledge carries as much weight as real life knowledge and I have seen plenty of died in the wool "Hot rod" shops with civics and Z-cars, and jaguars, and all manner of other stuff tucked in the back. I have seen plenty of "tuner" shops dyno tune muscle cars and hot rods. My buddy had rear airbags installed on his 1932 coupe at a mini-truck shop....so there is real life and then there is the internet.



    Yet here we are on a cafe racer forum debating what defines a cafe racer. Neither of us are kids, BTW...
    Ain't that the truth.

    Terms imply things. Show me an official definition of "cafe racer" and we can go from there. Asking how to make your '80s sport-bike into a cafe racer implies, to me, you want it to look retro. Yes, the term implies a style to me. As it does to most everyone else I know.
    There is no official definiton to any of this crap. It is all made up. the question is, what do you want to believe and what do you want to do? I planted my flag a long time ago based on the guys I saw doing cool things like racing motorcycles/cars/airplanes. I love shows, I love attending shows, I love bike nights, etc....but it is not to be precious about.


    Ya know, while typing this up something else was in the back of my mind. Guys were modifying bikes to go faster long before the term cafe racer came to be. This whole "essence" thing wasn't invented by the cafe racers, they were involved in an "essence" that had been around since the first bike was built. The "cafe racer" whatever lays no claim to the "essence" of improving performance any more than the guys who took their clues from board track racers. So why is it I have to buy into this thought that "cafe racer" is all about going faster and if you put a certain style into the equation you're an idiot/crossdresser/poser/hipster/etc? No, you haven't said that but it seems to be the underlying secret of some of the loyal guard here. The term implies an era to me, and with that era is a typical style.
    I use the term essence, but core, values, ideology, common ground, or "just doing shit" all work just as easily. the underlying secret (ha!) that is not really a secret is that style etc... should not be primary, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have it just it shouldn't be the most important thing. You can draw lines in the sands based on years or you can focus on the common ground.
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  6. #25
    Senior Member DesmoDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geeto67 View Post
    <snip>
    I use the term essence, but core, values, ideology, common ground, or "just doing shit" all work just as easily. the underlying secret (ha!) that is not really a secret is that style etc... should not be primary, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have it just it shouldn't be the most important thing. You can draw lines in the sands based on years or you can focus on the common ground.
    I think we agree on the vast majority of the background stuff, it's the terminology that throws me and a lot of the discussion is likely due to not describing what I mean very well. I also tend to generalize. I realize things are not literally true or universally true, but in general, for the most part, typically, etc...
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  7. #26
    Senior Member 8ball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geeto67 View Post
    ......Let's back up, I think we all assumed he meant cafe racer like 1960's custom, but I still fully support the superbikes and early race replicas (before the factory race replicas) fit into the cafe racer genre as well since the method was still the same: build your speed. ......
    Quote Originally Posted by kenessex View Post
    I think you cafe purists need to take a step back and consider what the essence of "cafeing" a bike is. If the classic approach is to improve the performance aspects of the original bike, which was done in the day by putting on rearsets, lower bars and lower seat and perhaps an engine swap (triton), then the same can be done with any bike, including an Interceptor. .......

    I agree with you and buy into that definition, within our little circle......but when the OP came in and posts this statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by lbengtson1 View Post
    I have a 1983 Honda v45 Interceptor that I am looking to turn into a cafe racer. Any ideas or suggestions on looks or best parts would be greatly appreciated!

    Do you REALLY, honestly, believe THIS is what he meant? Or for that matter, had even considered that route?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geeto67 View Post

    Last edited by 8ball; 08-13-2015 at 03:33 PM.
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    .... same thing with furniture, it doesn't have to be straight or not wobble, or keep thing from rolling off it, or not collapse when sat upon, it's personal taste man... if I want a dining room set that endangers the life of my dinner party guests, then it doesn't need second hand approval

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  8. #27
    Senior Member knappyfeet's Avatar
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    Well the cafe style is definitely it's own genre and I would not use the term "cafe" as I would use "hot rodding". I mean when you think about it the term cafe comes from hooligans in the 50s and 60s racing their stripped down bikes from pub to pub......primarily in England.........hardly the genesis of racing motorcycles........just a style. And I would hardly consider an exhaust and a power commander installed on my R1 "cafeing " it out as I would say.........a guy installing an exhaust and chip in a civic as hot rodding it out......there's a difference.

    I can never remember a time when we were you using the term cafe.....or ever really hearing about it as a kid growing up. We took our Seca 550s and our gs550s and wanted to make them look "factory" or a superbike or road racer. We never wanted to emulate old British singles of the 60s. We all wanted to copy our hero's and make our bikes look like theirs. Fast Freddi or Roberts or Cooley. Til this day....yoshi replicas and Muzzy replicas do it for me and I can assure you they are not "cafe". I agree with Desmo............modifying motorcycles was started long before hooligans went from pub to pub. I think they were called board or road racers.

    So when someone comes kn and wants t o cafe out a gpz750........it's mainly for style. Even if they want to make it more road racer I would almost put the title "hot rodding" it rather than cafeing it.........unless there's Firestones and clubmans involved......then it's funny.

  9. #28
    Senior Member parkwood60's Avatar
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    You know it is really funny the way language works. If you tell me you are building a "hot rod" with no other descriptive term I naturally assume it is a pre-war car, or at the latest something from the 50s. But you can say you are "hot rodding" anything, even a BMW 2002, Honda Civic, or motorcycle. Of course there are crazy people who try to apply the traditional hot rod look to non traditional cars (or bikes) and it just looks stupid to anyone who knows better. A flat black Toyota pickup with wide white wall bigs and littles on red wheels with dog dish hub caps is not a hot rod, but certainly apes many of the visual elements.
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    So it is a Mazda, so sue me. I started ranting before doing a image search

    The modern use of the term "cafe racer" is so new that it has not really normalized. As I mentioned in my previous post, when someone tells me they are "cafeing" I imagine them going to a cafe to sip coffee and eat finger food. There is no verb form of building a cafe racer, and does anyone really need one? Who can't just say "converting" or "modifying" or "building" a cafe racer? Or if you must be pretentious, applying the cafe racer treatment. "Igor, increase the voltage and begin the cafe racer treatment!" I shout at my hunchbacked assistant.

    And oddly enough I do believe you can "hot rod" a motorcycle and end up with a "cafe racer". But it really depends on what bike you start with and what it looks like when it finishes. The "California Hot Rod" Ducati 750ss road race bike is proof of that, I think.

    The Million-Dollar Ducati Motorcycle? California Hot Rod on eBay: Known as the California Hot Rod, this <em>Cycle</em> Magazine Ducati 750SS, a Daytona winner built by Phil Schilling and Cook Neilson, is now up for sale on eBay. Yours for $1 million!

    To me that is a perfect example of what the current young cafe racer guys should be aiming for in look and function, when building a 70s Honda cafe racer. Why ignore 20 years of performance and aesthetic evolution and build a 70s bike that looks like a 1950s bike (and works like one too). An of course this evolved into the AMA factory superbikes by the late 1970s, so anything from that era should reflect that style in my mind.

    But of course, then you have mid century ranches dressed up to look like Victorian houses, so it really is pointless to try to rage against these sorts of things I suppose

    And now I have not idea where I was going, but I think I've passed it
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