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Rattle-can Racer

This is a discussion on Rattle-can Racer within the Project Builds forums, part of the Caferacer.net Forums category; Hi folks, been lurking for a while, decided to post up my newest project, finally say hi. Living in Quebec we are neither blessed with ...

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  1. #1
    Member jordan's Avatar
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    Rattle-can Racer

    Hi folks, been lurking for a while, decided to post up my newest project, finally say hi.
    Living in Quebec we are neither blessed with good roads, nor an abundance of race tracks, so don’t expect anything pretty to look at.

    So this is hopefully going to be completed by easter, or not so long after.
    Wanted to buy a few T500 parts, but the fellow made me a deal for everything so he could clear out some space.
    The idea here is a quick finish, fun little track days bike. Not trying to make it race legal, just something to beat around the track a few times a year. Most of the work was already done so inspection and tune up should be all that’s required.



    Starting with a standard t500 frame, braced and been cut off about 12” past the rear shock mounts. Early fz600 forks, twin disk brakes with a nicely seized calliper somewhere. Fairing is a little rough, but it’ll do, maybe a new windscreen will be needed.
    Needs a front fender and an inner rear fender at the least. Also needs a belly pan, to be made at some point.

    To the engine, twingle crank out. [ing]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/60fac87476c5474636f452303750467b.jpg[/img]
    Standard crank in and kickstart back in. (For now)

    I then proceeded to snap off one of the screws holding the seal over the output shaft...

    After a few man tears, a bottle of blonde des Cantons from the local micro brewery, it was time to bust out the welder.

    Best use for header wrap, heat proofing anything but headers...
    45 minutes, and 7 attempts later i was rewarded with this.

    Time to get everything buttoned up to check squish clearance.

    Interestingly, the engine was put together with a single ring per piston

    Got 2 sets of fresh rings ordered, don’t think this motor will see any of the advantages of running single ringed. Any 2 stroke experts have any insight?



    10mm squish band on the heads, roughly 50% squish area. Going to set the squish clearance somewhere between 1mm and 1.4mm.

    Cylinders seem to be ported to the old tr500 specs, going to make pipes to match.



    I do “have” these pipes,
    Unfortunately the dumbass i am left them in my uncles back yard 700km away when i picked up the stuff...
    Might try them out when he brings them at easter.

    Going with what seem to be 38mm mikunis.
    I was told one set was 36mm and another 38, but both sets i got measured the same. Not sure what they came off of, they’ll do nicely i thinks.



    Electronic Ignition is off a yamaha tr2 i believe, we’ll see how this goes.
    Any suggestions on timing?
    Going to go with the stock timing, unless suggested otherwise.


    That’s all for now, thanks for checkin in.

    Jordan
    Last edited by jordan; 02-17-2018 at 06:49 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member DesmoDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordan View Post
    Hi folks, been lurking for a while, decided to post up my newest project, finally say hi.
    Living in Quebec we are neither blessed with good roads, nor an abundance of race tracks, so don’t expect anything pretty to look at.

    So this is hopefully going to be completed by easter, or not so long after.
    Wanted to buy a few T500 parts, but the fellow made me a deal for everything so he could clear out some space.
    The idea here is a quick finish, fun little track days bike. Not trying to make it race legal, just something to beat around the track a few times a year. Most of the work was already done so inspection and tune up should be all that’s required.



    Starting with a standard t500 frame, braced and been cut off about 12” past the rear shock mounts. Early fz600 forks, twin disk brakes with a nicely seized calliper somewhere. Fairing is a little rough, but it’ll do, maybe a new windscreen will be needed.
    Needs a front fender and an inner rear fender at the least. Also needs a belly pan, to be made at some point.

    To the engine, twingle crank out.
    Standard crank in and kickstart back in. (For now)

    I then proceeded to snap off one of the screws holding the seal over the output shaft...

    After a few man tears, a bottle of blonde des Cantons from the local micro brewery, it was time to bust out the welder.

    Best use for header wrap, heat proofing anything but headers...
    45 minutes, and 7 attempts later i was rewarded with this.

    Time to get everything buttoned up to check squish clearance.

    Interestingly, the engine was put together with a single ring per piston

    Got 2 sets of fresh rings ordered, don’t think this motor will see any of the advantages of running single ringed. Any 2 stroke experts have any insight?



    10mm squish band on the heads, roughly 50% squish area. Going to set the squish clearance somewhere between 1mm and 1.4mm.

    Cylinders seem to be ported to the old tr500 specs, going to make pipes to match.



    I do “have” these pipes,
    Unfortunately the dumbass i am left them in my uncles back yard 700km away when i picked up the stuff...
    Might try them out when he brings them at easter.

    Going with what seem to be 38mm mikunis.
    I was told one set was 36mm and another 38, but both sets i got measured the same. Not sure what they came off of, they’ll do nicely i thinks.



    Electronic Ignition is off a yamaha tr2 i believe, we’ll see how this goes.
    Any suggestions on timing?
    Going to go with the stock timing, unless suggested otherwise.


    That’s all for now, thanks for checkin in.

    Jordan
    Image tags are your friend
    -Craig
    The Mighty Monza Jr. Thread: https://www.caferacer.net/forum/proje...r-project.html

  3. #3
    Member jordan's Avatar
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    Hey Dirkchecken
    The heads i have aren't originals, they are a set that were cast and then machined with a squish band, the plug was placed offset from the exhaust port. That might explain the 5 spare sets of stock heads the fellow gave me...
    unfortunately the engine was already converted to run premix, but i am still on the hunt for a good pump and lines.
    By converted i mean the cases transfer slots were drilled to feed the bearings and the crank has had the oil slinger plates removed, the pump drive is removed and the case been plugged.
    I'll be giving the tr2 ignition a go, simply because i have it already. same thing basically, rotor, pickup, cdi, coil. like 3-4 wires maybe. i'll see how it goes.


    how do you like those pipes? they run with the stock headers?
    These are stock pistons, only one ring installed though.
    fork brace is definitely on the list.
    not sure what the wheels are, and a damper and rearsets are currently installed.
    thanks for the tips.

    On a side note, i got this stuff from D.Thomas out in orangville, i think he was a member on the vrra forum, maybe you know him?

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  5. #4
    Senior Member Teazer's Avatar
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    I replied on another forum, but to recap. Heads are probably machined by RK Tek.

    Aluminum TIA02 CDI is the correct one. Check the stator resistance as well as low and high speed charge coils to see if the stator is worth keeping.

    Crank diameter is larger on a GT500 than a Yamaha twin so you need a different rotor or have the rotor turned to a larger bore. I have Motoplat ignitions with large and small bore rotors and with Motoplat and PVL coils.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I replied on another forum, but to recap. Heads are probably machined by RK Tek.

    Aluminum TIA02 CDI is the correct one. Check the stator resistance as well as low and high speed charge coils to see if the stator is worth keeping.

    Crank diameter is larger on a GT500 than a Yamaha twin so you need a different rotor or have the rotor turned to a larger bore. I have Motoplat ignitions with large and small bore rotors and with Motoplat and PVL coils.

  6. #5
    Member jordan's Avatar
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    Hey Teazer
    I did see the other post, thanks for the feedback.
    I guess the rotors must have been modified somewhat because i have two that fit onto the cranks.
    Both CDI boxes have the same model number stamped into them.
    Any idea what the resistances should check out at? I have 4 stators so hopefully at least two of them are okay or this sweet deal just got a bitter aftertaste.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #6
    Senior Member Teazer's Avatar
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    Only the double stator with two pickups and two charge coils will work. I'd speculate that the reason he had those single cylinder units was to fire a double ended coil. A Hitachi twin CDI fires each plug at the right time - no wasted spark. I don't know enough about later type TZ CDIs from say a reverse cylinder or powervalve. They were different.

    I suspect that the plastic CDI is for a single. Check the wiring. It probably has one less wire that the twin pick up unit.

    I will have to dig out my old (very old) analog notes from when I tested a bunch of those ignitions. I have a few Motoplats now and prefer them.

  8. #7
    Member jordan's Avatar
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    Rattle-can Racer

    I found it actually
    The twin is from an early tz350,
    The other 3 are from a tz250

    http://web.archive.org/web/200308102...database.htm#1

    Too bad this site isnít up any more, you canít find it through google fu

    The 5f7-11 units can be made to work as they fire every 180 degrees even though the tz250 is a 360 degree twin. Thatís what he had been running in another engine i have. The crank nose snapped off, but other than that it should be good to go with either of the units. The link above also had the resistance values to check against, hereís holing for good news, but i doubt it.
    Last edited by jordan; 02-18-2018 at 12:09 AM.

  9. #8
    Member jordan's Avatar
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    With some tinkering this evening i managed to dry fit a tz350 stator and rotor into a gt500 engine.


    I donít like it.
    I donít like a lot of things iím finding on this adventure.
    The mounting plate of the stator clearly does not fit all the back in the cases.
    Apparent solution: machine up an extension to stretch out end of the crank.


    What? The mounting holes of the tz plate are 2 at 180 degrees and the gt are 3 at 120?
    No problem, machined a recess around the cases so the mounting plate can only rotate. Now we only need 1 bolt. Huge weight savings there...
    If you were wondering how well the crank held up with the rotor stuck out by and inch, hereís the one for the tz250 rotor.

    OOOOPS.

    More of this bundle of wtf were you thinking includes but is definitely not limited to.
    Having machined down the ends of 2 cranks to yamaha sized taper.
    Having made a new extended pin with a yamaha taper, but made the taper too long and didnít drill and tap for the bolt.


    Not to mention what ever was going on with the machining on the twingle crank.

    What a bundle of crap.

  10. #9
    Senior Member Cyorg's Avatar
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    Speaking of saving weight....If you want, you could just shit can all that ignition stuff and get a system from PowerArc. I converted one of their systems to replace a rather expensive non existent mag. I think it would be a relatively easy job to convert one of their existing systems from a (god forbid) a British twin. I just used one from a single and mounted it in a small distributor housing, but they can be crank mounted. The up side is that they are programable (with the proper gear) and you can create your own maps and put the rev limiter where you want. They will actually hold 4 maps and you can switch between maps by switching sensor grounds. So 2 switches all get you access to 4 curves. Doesn't apply to your case, but you can use a VOS to change maps (for people that might want to add a little N2O). Only thing that you will have to get used to is.. because they light the fire 3 times, a timing light will look rather erratic. You just set it at TDC and have faith. If you were to ever spend some hard earned money on a dyno session, having the ability to switch maps instantly would save time. 4 in the unit and you could have other batches in a laptop ready to load.

    actually the one from the single with the appropriate coil would likely work for either crank.
    Last edited by Cyorg; 02-19-2018 at 09:43 AM.
    "Non urinat in ventum"

  11. #10
    Senior Member Teazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyorg View Post
    Speaking of saving weight....If you want, you could just shit can all that ignition stuff and get a system from PowerArc. I converted one of their systems to replace a rather expensive non existent mag. I think it would be a relatively easy job to convert one of their existing systems from a (god forbid) a British twin. I just used one from a single and mounted it in a small distributor housing, but they can be crank mounted. The up side is that they are programable (with the proper gear) and you can create your own maps and put the rev limiter where you want. They will actually hold 4 maps and you can switch between maps by switching sensor grounds. So 2 switches all get you access to 4 curves. Doesn't apply to your case, but you can use a VOS to change maps (for people that might want to add a little N2O). Only thing that you will have to get used to is.. because they light the fire 3 times, a timing light will look rather erratic. You just set it at TDC and have faith. If you were to ever spend some hard earned money on a dyno session, having the ability to switch maps instantly would save time. 4 in the unit and you could have other batches in a laptop ready to load.

    actually the one from the single with the appropriate coil would likely work for either crank.
    The reason that self generating systems were popular of race bikes was because they had no battery to short out or die in a long race. We don't do a lot of GP length races, so that's really no longer an issue, but batteries do need to be rubber mounted to isolate them from plate killing vibrations. Modern lithium batteries are also really light but do need an appropriate charger.

    There are a few different programmable ignitions systems on the market. For programmable systems, RZ owners and H2 triple racers like Zeeltronics, but I prefer Ignitech systems. The one on my drag bike has shift kill functionality plus two step launch and programmable curve and it drives both a shift light and electronic tacho, but of course it needs a small battery to drive it. And RC batteries have more than enough punch for short races.

    There are even more non programmable ignitions too, but the one I use most often is Dyna. They are cheap and readily available. I have fabricated a couple of setups for GT750 triples and a GT250 twin plus numerous Honda set ups for crank and cam mounting. I am not a fan of neutronics, but I really like Accent from Germany for battery powered ignitions on a street bike. I fitted one to the Dunstall and a GT550.

    But you have a system that should work and is pretty much rewindable if it's an early style. Later sealed coils have to be replaced if they are bad or the leads break off. If teh coils and pickups are in spec, it should work just fine.

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