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Interesting information regarding airboxes and high flow carbs

This is a discussion on Interesting information regarding airboxes and high flow carbs within the Technical forums, part of the Caferacer.net Forums category; For sure the one at the science centre was a 6, they had it in a glass display case or I would have touched it, ...

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  1. #31
    Senior Member TrialsRider's Avatar
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    For sure the one at the science centre was a 6, they had it in a glass display case or I would have touched it, When it disappeared from public display I assumed it was on temporary loan by presumedly Honda inc. I used to do microscope work for the science centre and had contacts who could have confirmed it about 40 some years ago, but I image those guys have retired and passed on by now. Sadly I can't recall what number was on it.

  2. #32
    jcw
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teazer View Post
    The TO bike is a 64 RC164 IIRC. ie it's a first year 250 which was raced by Redman. The components are something else for sure. I used to know Rob I and Nobby pretty well back in the 90's and visited the shop a few times.

    Didn't Rod Gould abscond with a Hailwood 6? I don't know if that's the TO bike or another one. Tom Faulds did have a "350" in Canada for years and I'm sure it went back home to Japan some years ago.

    BTW, just to be pedantic, RC were works racers and CR were production racers including CR93, 77, 72 and 110. Any 6 has to be a favorite bike but maybe a 50cc twin or 5 cylinder 125 is perhaps even more exotic.

    You guys are amazing...

  3. #33
    Senior Member Cyorg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrialsRider View Post
    For sure the one at the science centre was a 6, they had it in a glass display case or I would have touched it, When it disappeared from public display I assumed it was on temporary loan by presumedly Honda inc. I used to do microscope work for the science centre and had contacts who could have confirmed it about 40 some years ago, but I image those guys have retired and passed on by now. Sadly I can't recall what number was on it.
    Unless they scrubbed it really well, it still has some of my DNA on it.
    "Non urinat in ventum"

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  5. #34
    Senior Member Geeto67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teazer View Post
    The TO bike is a 64 RC164 IIRC. ie it's a first year 250 which was raced by Redman. The components are something else for sure. I used to know Rob I and Nobby pretty well back in the 90's and visited the shop a few times.

    Didn't Rod Gould abscond with a Hailwood 6? I don't know if that's the TO bike or another one. Tom Faulds did have a "350" in Canada for years and I'm sure it went back home to Japan some years ago.

    BTW, just to be pedantic, RC were works racers and CR were production racers including CR93, 77, 72 and 110. Any 6 has to be a favorite bike but maybe a 50cc twin or 5 cylinder 125 is perhaps even more exotic.
    It's been 6 years since I have seen it at least and they have it going again. I think it's a 3RC164 which would make ti a 1965 and not one of the original RC164s. I believe Roper rode it at the 2017 TT classic. I just remember everyone at that garage when I was there calling it a 166.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyorg View Post
    You are correct about the RC & CR #dyslexia. I am positive it was a 250 that Tom had and the hall of fame link refers to it as :

    "That was the result the first time they succeeded in firing up the RC166 six-cylinder 250 cc Honda grand prix bike that Tom had rescued from obscurity after it was retired from display at the Ontario Science Centre and placed in storage."

    Whatever it was.... it was a 6 and yes it went back to Japan and the story I got was that it was raced by Hailwood.
    there is an article in december 2018 classic bike about an RC166. It's owned by Honda Canada's Vice President of Service Tom Faulds. It was a 166 that was supposedly never raced and not Hailwoods bike. Tom lives in Toronto, and I believe the test ride they did was in in canada, although there are several sources that say the bike "went back to japan". this is probably the bike you saw.

    The thing about the 166 is that it's forever associated with Hailwood as he is the more famous rider. Redman won more races on it than mike but because Redman retired in 1966 after crashing the RC188 he is not as famous. I feel like Hailwood is really only more famous because of his comeback at the IOM TT with ducati in 1978 when he was considered "over the hill" . Everyone I saw who visited the 250 6 at TO's garage asked if it was Hailwood's and when told it was Redman's half of them had a glazed over "who?" look in their eye.
    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
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  6. #35
    Senior Member Cyorg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geeto67 View Post
    there is an article in december 2018 classic bike about an RC166. It's owned by Honda Canada's Vice President of Service Tom Faulds. It was a 166 that was supposedly never raced and not Hailwoods bike. Tom lives in Toronto, and I believe the test ride they did was in in canada, although there are several sources that say the bike "went back to japan". this is probably the bike you saw.

    Everyone I saw who visited the 250 6 at TO's garage asked if it was Hailwood's and when told it was Redman's half of them had a glazed over "who?" look in their eye.
    I haven't seen the article in Classic Bike, I'l have to snag a copy.

    I can defiantly say that was the bike. As previously mentioned (in a roundabout way) it was Tom who was overseeing the firing up of the 166 and he took it for a short spin that day (so yes it was in Canada). As for never being raced, I'm prepared to bet my last remaining testicle that is not the case. Does the Classic Bike article state that it was never raced? Granted it was long ago and folks (me included) have lots of memories that they believe to be accurate, but are not. It is safe to say that Tom never raced it (although he did a lot of racing) as he was around your size or perhaps a little taller, so even if he wanted to it would't have been practical. I recall the bike needing some care and attention from use and along with some patina and tech inspection sticker that suggests it was raced. I don't recall from what race and I'm not prepared to make the same wager on that specific (sticker) point. When I mentioned "the story I got was that Hailwood raced it" I used the word "story" because I don't recall who told me that and as you know there is always loads of BS surrounding race bikes. The story I got with a bike of mine is that it was raced by Jimmie Guthrie in the TT and I am 99.9% sure that no single component on the bike was raced by Guthrie.... and I couldn't give a rats fanny because I love the bike so much. Anyway, back to the 6. I can say without doubt the bike went back to Japan. The blurb about Tom that I posted the link to also states it went back to Japan. It also refers to the bike being from the Hailwood era and one could assume if they had knowledge of it being raced by Hailwood, they would have said so.

    It's not hard to do, but you have confused me with your reference (and Teazer's) to "TO's garage. Who or what is TO?
    "Non urinat in ventum"

  7. #36
    Senior Member Geeto67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyorg View Post
    I haven't seen the article in Classic Bike, I'l have to snag a copy.
    I bought my copy at Barnes and Noble Friday night, so it might still be on newsstands.

    I can defiantly say that was the bike. As previously mentioned (in a roundabout way) it was Tom who was overseeing the firing up of the 166 and he took it for a short spin that day (so yes it was in Canada). As for never being raced, I'm prepared to bet my last remaining testicle that is not the case. Does the Classic Bike article state that it was never raced?
    IIRC the article had one sentence that said it was unchanged as it left the factory. It could have been a back up bike, who knows, but factory bikes back then had lots of changes from race to race and during races. Lots of stuff gets thrown away.

    Granted it was long ago and folks (me included) have lots of memories that they believe to be accurate, but are not. It is safe to say that Tom never raced it (although he did a lot of racing) as he was around your size or perhaps a little taller, so even if he wanted to it would't have been practical. I recall the bike needing some care and attention from use and along with some patina and tech inspection sticker that suggests it was raced. I don't recall from what race and I'm not prepared to make the same wager on that specific (sticker) point. When I mentioned "the story I got was that Hailwood raced it" I used the word "story" because I don't recall who told me that and as you know there is always loads of BS surrounding race bikes. The story I got with a bike of mine is that it was raced by Jimmie Guthrie in the TT and I am 99.9% sure that no single component on the bike was raced by Guthrie.... and I couldn't give a rats fanny because I love the bike so much. Anyway, back to the 6. I can say without doubt the bike went back to Japan. The blurb about Tom that I posted the link to also states it went back to Japan. It also refers to the bike being from the Hailwood era and one could assume if they had knowledge of it being raced by Hailwood, they would have said so.
    Race Bikes are always a mystery. It was Alan Cathcart writing the article and he's pretty accurate, so maybe I'm reading something into it not being there. I can tell you from having worked on stuff that Cal Rayborn and Dick Mann rode it's rare that there is a numbers matching race bike. TO had lists for frame numbers from Dick O'Brien of the bikes assigned to Cal but who knows what number did what - there were at least 10 different frame numbers, and none of the engines have matching numbers.

    Honda was so secretive and so bad at documenting this stuff back then that I don't even know if it is known for certain how many RC166s were built and how many spares made. Most people think 2 because there were two riders, jim and mike, but in my head an operation like honda and their approach to F1, it would have been 2 per rider (4) plus maybe a floater spare and a development mule (6 total). And that's not counting the 3RC164s 6's which came out in 64-1965 and maybe there were 3 or 4 of.

    It's not hard to do, but you have confused me with your reference (and Teazer's) to "TO's garage. Who or what is TO?
    Team Obsolete. I used to "help out" around there a while ago. Got to meet lots of great people. And see lots of great bikes. I think Rob still owns Ago's 1967 MV that tossed the chain and gave hailwood the 67 TT win. I used to stare at that bike because I thought doing so would let me channel super riding powers.

    http://www.teamobsolete.com/

    Edit: if you look on their site they correctly ID their 6 as an RC165, so I guess I was wrong about it being a 166. Still held all 6 pistons in the palm of my right hand.
    Last edited by Geeto67; 01-07-2019 at 01:09 PM.
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  8. #37
    Senior Member Teazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyorg View Post
    You are correct about the RC & CR #dyslexia. I am positive it was a 250 that Tom had and the hall of fame link refers to it as :

    "That was the result the first time they succeeded in firing up the RC166 six-cylinder 250 cc Honda grand prix bike that Tom had rescued from obscurity after it was retired from display at the Ontario Science Centre and placed in storage."

    Whatever it was.... it was a 6 and yes it went back to Japan and the story I got was that it was raced by Hailwood.

    Ps... the RC164 is a 4 cylinder. https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/14264/lot/636/
    Correct. The 64 6 cylinder was actually the 3RC164.... 4's were RC164 and 2RC164. Interestingly enough I have collected pics off the ever accurate interwebs that have the 64 Redman (TO) bike as an RC164 and as a 2RC164 and also as an RC166.

    And I think the Faulds bike was the one that Hailwood rode in 67? and the photo I have has green plates so, yes, a 250.

  9. #38
    Senior Member Cyorg's Avatar
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    Sorry CaTacL1sm.... looks like your thread got highjacked.

    Just for shits and giggles I checked the 67 schedule. Second last race of the year was won by Hailwood on the 250 at Mosport. The last race of the year was at the Fuji raceway and he won on the 350. Could explain how the 250 ended up at The Ontario Science Museum. The races were only 2 weeks apart and my so called memory tells me that the 250 was close to the point where it needed pistons etc. Who knows... with their crew and funds that wouldn't normally be a factor, but again second last race..... and they likely had another fresh one in Japan waiting for him.... or he just didn't run a 250 in Japan because he was just too worn out as well. The standings for the race in Japan must be around somewhere.
    Last edited by Cyorg; 01-07-2019 at 05:44 PM.
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  10. #39
    Senior Member Geeto67's Avatar
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    The "350" was actually the RC174 6 cylinder and it was 297ccs. It was the final evolution of the RC165-166 but honda punched the bore and stroke out and bumped up to the 350cc class. I often wonder what other "evolutions" the RC166 underwent, and whether the bike that raced the 1966 season was even the same bike that raced the 1967 season.

    This is interesting and sorta explains where the bike came from:

    https://safe.menlosecurity.com/docvi...5b3e119e2c5fcc

    it also speculates that maybe 8 or 9 were built.
    Last edited by Geeto67; 01-08-2019 at 07:47 AM.
    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
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    A tool is just an opportunity with a handle
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  11. #40
    Senior Member XB33BSA's Avatar
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    i agree that the resonant tune on intake is pretty much a narrow rrpm band of useful in its not even huge 5% maximumgains if everything is perfect

    however i tend to think having this tune dialed,somewhat seat of the pants-ish enables the intake tract to function nicely no matter what rpm or throttle position
    and it is a tune a person can toy with without disassembling the engine at all
    combinev that
    along with exhaust pipesand that they are home turner friendly for those with an oxyace torch and the meager skills to flame weld
    if ya pickin that up git ya a drift boat the steelhead are runnin'
    on another subjrect
    ahh heck ill start a thread
    jcw likes this.

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