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1950's 4 cylinder Norton

24K views 64 replies 10 participants last post by  jalsteve 
#1 ·
Just been reading Classic Racer and came across a gossip section regarding Molnar building a replica of a 4 cylinder Norton that was never raced.

Apparently, Norton built this engine in the 1950's, but never got any further than running it on a dyno. It's a 500cc watercooled DOHC with reverse cylinder head and forward facing carbs. Molnar will be following specification as closely as possible to historical information they have and aim to build a competetive race bike with around 80bhp at 14,000rpm.

A modified featherbed frame will be used, just as Norton would have done, which is interesting to hear. They aim to have some engine components ready to display at this years Classic TT.

Their target is to debut a bike at 2017 Classic TT. Should be an interesting thing to follow.
 
#2 ·
I've often thought of how a reverse port engine "should" work better than a conventional type purely on the basis of a more direct airflow.

Like the Team Foggy Petronas:



Unfortunately it was plagued with problems - a lot of them to do with having such a short exhaust...




Seems to be a more popular set-up in drag racing though....



....probably because they can run a longer exhaust due to the longer chassis.
 
#3 ·
Like the Team Foggy Petronas:



Unfortunately it was plagued with problems - a lot of them to do with having such a short exhaust...
The bigger problem the Foggy bike had was that the rules changed to 1000cc for the fours from 750cc. In doing so the team couldn't compete against the bigger 4 pots, as there was no further concessions for triples and the Foggy bikes had already been homologated as 900's.
 
#4 · (Edited)
....and what does Andy intend doing with this bike, it cannot be raced as it didn't race in period? Hey but neither did the Patton 8v other than in a few domestic Italian Championship races (and its suspected that the 4 valve engine was used in most of those races too) and never in a GP. All that came of the Joe Craigs Norton project was a one-cylinder 125cc test engine and some castings for a prototype full-build engine.

There have been plenty of reverse cylinder bikes, as this thread is about Norton it worth mentioning that Derek Minter rode a reverse cylinder Manx for Ray Petty in the late 60's with some success.

Ref 14000rpm and 80HP in the 50's dream on, the design HP this Norton 4 was a little under 50hp so I guess the Molnar engine will be modernised version. Gilera couldn't hit 80hp or could MV get anywhere near. In 1978 a 496cc Honda 400/4 was put on the old Norton works dyno and it made mid 50's hp and eventually 62hp with a 13000rpm red line and the guy operating it said "that's is the most powerful 500cc 4 stroke bike we've ever had on this dyno". I think it took Helmut Fath and his valve spring development work to get an engine to reliably rev to 14000rpm in 1968!

Projects like this in my opinion don't bring anything to classic racing. Developing Manx and G50 engines usually means an improvement in standard specification parts resulting from better materials and machining so there is a benefit. Replica's of Honda 6's, Benelli's, MV's and Gilera's are fantastic but mean deep pockets and 1/4million budgets to go racing, now that's not amateur is it. Saying that Joe Craig's works Nortons did beat the Italian multis not by out performing but by doggedly pushing and threatening until the Italians blew up or their riders made mistakes.

Interestingly Andy's 65hp 4 valve Manx (which has no historic credence) was out dragged by Ken Macintosh's 57hp 92bore Summerfield at last years Manx. Personally I would be looking to improve last years 4v project and make it win perhaps with a little more development and with a rider more suited to the bike, GP singles are ridden like 125's and not wrestled like big Jap multis.
 
#5 ·
Hmmm, Andy is quoted as saying they will debut a 4 cylinder bike at the Manx in 2017, where it will undoubtably fail and then return in 2018 to win. Some statement to make, that is.

Same thought as you really, as it's not a bike or engine that was ever raced so I don't know how he will gain an entry at the Classic TT.
 
#9 ·
Its all bollocks.

Norton built fantastic bikes the equal of some and better than most in period. Today people like Garner are more interested in squabbling over brand ownership than making bikes the equal or better than the competition. "Current" Norton are still trying to make variations on the monster tube frame (designed by Spondon) handle better than the beam framed Spondon bikes form the 80's and early 90's and are failing miserably.

Enough said.
 
#10 ·
monster tube frame (designed by Spondon)
Dirty bastard..... go and stand in the corner and think about what you've just said...

Are we talking THE monster...

The one with the fluffy teddy bear on the front mudguard?

Where they technically cooked the figures in the back of a transit but it would actually wheelie off the throttle at 140.....

dirty boy..... stand in the corner :D
 
#13 ·
It was one that steve burns built and I think it was for wheelie world record IIRC. GSX1100EFE lump bored to 1440 with a rayjay turbocharger. It was at the time that the streetfighter scene was starting to flourish. I actually saw it in the flesh at the 1991 NEC show and I have never been the same since.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Streetfighters....... Having the front wheel in the air at 120 is seriously scary, it feels like its never going to come down again. At 140mph I would be looking to bail out.

One of my Spondon's waiting for treatment (got a few knocking about including a works RS1000 engined bike). This one is 1260cc EFE engine in a co-axil, bike dates from 1986, see white bike and article written about the bike in the 80's, she's still largely as built. Not going to hack this bike but rebuild it period, a better colour too. Its a big beast but rides really really well.

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#15 · (Edited)
I love the spondons and harris' of the era that looked a little quirky to say the least but did a bloody good job of taking brutish, tuned big jap fours and putting them in amazingly good handling chassis.

A nice magnum 4 would be on my list of attainable dreams but I've let so many slip through my fingers, like the ZXR that you got the old seat hump cover for. A pretty much mint H2 with J fully adjustable front and rear end.

A shame when I fell on harder times and had to let it go as a project but luckily I didn't lose any money and got 2 amazing seasons out of her.

Kinda wish I was still painting as I'd've offered to lick your dirty spondon a lot cheaper than usual so I could include it in my portfolio.

It looks sexier in white than in turquoise and wizardy purple!
 
#16 ·
Man life is like a wheel, one moment your up the next minute your down. Its just the way it is.

Really sexy 80's trick framed bikes can still be found for not huge money if you want to put the hours in. The bike below was assembled from bits purchased from the 4 corners of...... over a 2 year period. Engine is FZR1000 flowed, head skimmed, YZF cams, YZF six speed gearbox and fitted with 39mm FCR's and hand bent headers to YEC tail pipe and can went straight to 141hp on the dyno. Donor engine, YZF bits, gaskets, carbs and exhaust can cost me £970! It doesn't need to be expensive! Add another £4000 and that's what the bike has cost. Finding 5k isn't easy but spread over 2 years its easier. A little patience and persistence needed and you'll get there.

Still haven't decided on paint for the Spondon, but it will be something to make the bike look smaller than it is - its huge! Happy for you to paint it so long as its perfect, the original white was a candy type metallic. The exhaust will be replaced for a racefit titanium item but the rest of the bike will be refreshed and left as is. Wheels will going dark probably black!

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#17 ·
Black wheels would suit it and tbh keep the scheme as close as you can to what it is now. It's not a million miles away from the lucky strike yamaha.

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I'd keep the emblem and font for the logo but make it read "Lovely Spondon" instead of "Lucky Strike"

But that's just me!
 
#19 · (Edited)
Germany seemed to do ok. By 52 their economy was flying again.

Anyway. I was recently told that a full engine was in fact built (yet to see the proof) and languished with the British Leyland Design department for years. The whole project seemed to be based on work undertaken by a BRM team who worked on a V16 and later a V8 (same design team who put the Vanwall together) who ironically copied the Manx Norton somewhat specifically top end design - The cylinder filling of a Manx is exceptional.

I think that what Leyland had or have is a car sized version of the proposed Norton engine which would make more sense as BRM V16 was making over 500hp converting this into a water cooled dohc 2ltr car engine (4 Manx Nortons) would see approx. 200hp in the early 50's.

Source of the above is relative of one of the original design team who was not a Leyland (BMC) employee.

The person I was speaking to says the engine with Leyland disappeared so I guess we'll never know if it was the Norton engine or a cut down BRM GP engine.
 
#23 ·
Not a lot of info on the bike in that book. Emailed you a copy of what is in there.[/QUOTE]

"Non urinat in ventum" in this case someone most definitely is.

Is a sad fact that the dickheads who let the Paton 8v into the pre 72 class will probably allow this bike in too. Every time I get into a discussion about the legality of certain bikes from the classic period the builders and owners are dismissive and never offer any solid evidence that these bikes in their current configuration raced in period. They my offer a murky photo or some hearsay only, unfortunately those that really know are no longer with us.

Given the 80plus HP the Paton's are currently making don't you think they would have done so much better in period, success breeds sales does it not. The 500cc Paton was a stretched 350 specially ordered by Hannah, no mention of 8 valves in period press releases, no mention of 8v in Italian press in 1968 either = the bike didn't exist. If you search the internet you can find the odd snip of info but its usually modern text against a murky old period photo.

Anyway the whole classic race scene is fast becoming a farce as the race classes aren't representative of way bikes developed or the common CC's of bike production of the day. For example the 650cc twin was the backbone of bike production from the 1950's to the late 60's. BUT the class that these bikes have to race in is 750cc pre 72 so they are up against Tridents, Honda 4's which are 20 years younger! The modern superbike class like wise as the CC limit is 1200cc when the class was never 1200cc but 1000cc up to 84 and 750cc after. In fact the unlimited class was outlawed after a very bad season which saw a lot of racers either killed or crippled on the roads and tracks of Europe.

I appreciate that competitors abide by the rules set by a race organisation but these rules always open to interpretation. But the fact is a GSXR engine of the bore and stroke config ridden by Dunlop at last years Classic TT didn't exist in 86 (cut off date). I guess when you add all of the interpretations together like wheel radius and rim width, later forks, later 4 pot callipers, wide track discs, later engines, programmable this and that, altered frames not as they were made originally with altered wheel base, head angles and cradle width for other engines - or rather there's nothing about this latest crop of "classic" race bikes that belongs in the period they are meant to represent. If the rules are up to 86 then that's the cut off, if made in Jan 87 it's illegal. End of. Or perhaps the "Classic Superbike" or "classic GP" class should be more accurately re named to the "New bikes made to look old" classes because that's exactly what they are.

Being a huge fan of motorcycle racing and classic racing in particular, sadly not involved as much as I would like to be, I am today finding classic racing boring and this is despite the fact that organisers relax the rules to get famous riders and increase the size of grids. The fact is Michael Dunlop would race a Rudge Multi if he was being paid 20k to do it. I find myself wandering around the paddock drawn to the original bikes like TZ350's and ignoring XR69's with FJ1100 or GSXR engines fitted, ignoring Rob North triples and looking at mid 60's Bonnies kitted out like Thruxton racers, original Manx or 7r! The sort of bikes that were raced all over the world and not this current crop of bullshit classic race bikes.

Now I have to admit to building replicas; 92 bore Manx with chrome bore, TR750's, F1 bikes from the 70's and 80's but nothing I build is out of period, geometry, engine config are all as they were available in period. In my opinion that's the way classics should be raced. Given the current trend and nothing changes I will build myself a G45 in magnesium with 8 valves and roller bearing crank or rather build a Paton inside the Matchless at least it will fit the silhouette rule.
 
#26 ·
Britain repaid it's ww2 debt in 2006.... We were had over a barrel by America first by the lend-lease agreement and then, when they screwed us over with that by cancelling it, they offered us a loan so that we didn't get wiped out. All the while companies like IBM were servicing the data logging hardware for the Nazis, Standard Oil were supplying tetraethyl lead to the Nazis (without which the luftwaffe could never have flown) and coca cola were running hand in hand with the Nazis.

The globe is unfortunately controlled by greedy bastards with no morals or ethics. We're all too undereducated, malnourished and dog tired from being tax slaves to do anything about it.

oo... oooo..... the x factor is about to start..... gotta go.....
 
#30 · (Edited)
As I said earlier poor pictures and a load of hearsay and that book isn't going to help.

Still not a grain of proof that a full engine ever existed.

Quote "probably the late Cyril Smith" and "talk around the circuit" proves nothing - it's just rumour. Now the publication does say "the very early 50's" and sidecar racing CC was capped at 500 for 1954, before this date the wasn't a CC limit. Before the war a few experimented with supercharged Austin 7 engines and other car based engines could this be what people heard, I guess we'll never know.
 
#31 ·
Who knows... not disagreeing with you.... that is all I could find in the library. It does say in the Built for Speed book that no one is certain that the 4 ran, but sounds like the single had some test time. One would think that if the 4 actually ran, there would be more info out there somewhere given the amount of ink on Norton's racing history.
 
#32 ·
One would think that if the 4 actually ran, there would be more info out there somewhere given the amount of ink on Norton's racing history.
Considering the Gilera 4 and MV 4 you might think there would be more evidence of the Norton 4. Given the success of both Italian marks you would think Norton would reprise their 4 but they didn't and that one thought convinces me it never ran or it was never intended as a 500.
 
#39 ·
I'm still baffled on how I got away with the last batch, although she's been off her feed a bit lately. I'll post some pics of the ultrasonic. I didn't go with the cheapest one, but also didn't want to spend a pile on something made you know where. It had decent reviews assuming they were legit. Looking forward to giving it a try.
 
#42 ·
I knew dick about them until I read into it. I first found Ichiban San whilst researching how to home build a bath. That's what eventually led me here.

The correct term for the language used in the instructions is "Chinglish" and it is an excessively polite way to make everything sound super nice.

If you end up using sea clean then start weak and build up. It's apparently all vagitarian, planet safe stuff; but my initial tests with it led to tarnishing of the component at higher concentrations when cleaning alloy. (almost like a speeding up of the natural oxidised protective layer that alloy creates on contact with atmosphere).

The first thing I cleaned when I got mine were the tea mugs. Play with it using different bath solutions and expendable parts to be cleaned.

I like the idea of using household ingredients to do better work than 5 gallons of "pro" cleaner retailing at £100
 
#44 ·
Most of the time you can run the same pump if you strip it and replace the buna o rings and seals with viton.

If it's fucked you can't fuck it any more by taking it to bits and fixing it.
 
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