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That book isn't going to help.

The book was written by Steve Griffiths's dad, a well known chap in his day. Steve runs Racing and Investment Motorcycles UK.
 
Not a lot of info on the bike in that book. Emailed you a copy of what is in there.[/QUOTE]

"Non urinat in ventum" in this case someone most definitely is.

Is a sad fact that the dickheads who let the Paton 8v into the pre 72 class will probably allow this bike in too. Every time I get into a discussion about the legality of certain bikes from the classic period the builders and owners are dismissive and never offer any solid evidence that these bikes in their current configuration raced in period. They my offer a murky photo or some hearsay only, unfortunately those that really know are no longer with us.

Given the 80plus HP the Paton's are currently making don't you think they would have done so much better in period, success breeds sales does it not. The 500cc Paton was a stretched 350 specially ordered by Hannah, no mention of 8 valves in period press releases, no mention of 8v in Italian press in 1968 either = the bike didn't exist. If you search the internet you can find the odd snip of info but its usually modern text against a murky old period photo.

Anyway the whole classic race scene is fast becoming a farce as the race classes aren't representative of way bikes developed or the common CC's of bike production of the day. For example the 650cc twin was the backbone of bike production from the 1950's to the late 60's. BUT the class that these bikes have to race in is 750cc pre 72 so they are up against Tridents, Honda 4's which are 20 years younger! The modern superbike class like wise as the CC limit is 1200cc when the class was never 1200cc but 1000cc up to 84 and 750cc after. In fact the unlimited class was outlawed after a very bad season which saw a lot of racers either killed or crippled on the roads and tracks of Europe.

I appreciate that competitors abide by the rules set by a race organisation but these rules always open to interpretation. But the fact is a GSXR engine of the bore and stroke config ridden by Dunlop at last years Classic TT didn't exist in 86 (cut off date). I guess when you add all of the interpretations together like wheel radius and rim width, later forks, later 4 pot callipers, wide track discs, later engines, programmable this and that, altered frames not as they were made originally with altered wheel base, head angles and cradle width for other engines - or rather there's nothing about this latest crop of "classic" race bikes that belongs in the period they are meant to represent. If the rules are up to 86 then that's the cut off, if made in Jan 87 it's illegal. End of. Or perhaps the "Classic Superbike" or "classic GP" class should be more accurately re named to the "New bikes made to look old" classes because that's exactly what they are.

Being a huge fan of motorcycle racing and classic racing in particular, sadly not involved as much as I would like to be, I am today finding classic racing boring and this is despite the fact that organisers relax the rules to get famous riders and increase the size of grids. The fact is Michael Dunlop would race a Rudge Multi if he was being paid 20k to do it. I find myself wandering around the paddock drawn to the original bikes like TZ350's and ignoring XR69's with FJ1100 or GSXR engines fitted, ignoring Rob North triples and looking at mid 60's Bonnies kitted out like Thruxton racers, original Manx or 7r! The sort of bikes that were raced all over the world and not this current crop of bullshit classic race bikes.

Now I have to admit to building replicas; 92 bore Manx with chrome bore, TR750's, F1 bikes from the 70's and 80's but nothing I build is out of period, geometry, engine config are all as they were available in period. In my opinion that's the way classics should be raced. Given the current trend and nothing changes I will build myself a G45 in magnesium with 8 valves and roller bearing crank or rather build a Paton inside the Matchless at least it will fit the silhouette rule.
 
Germany seemed to do ok. By 52 their economy was flying again.
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Germany's economy may have been flying but England's food rationing didn't end until 1954. I remember a long time friend saying that British motorcycles of that period were all built down to a price. All I've ever seen were drawings of the four and some castings. Maybe it was for the best. The four in a featherbed was uglier than a Weslake in my featherbed.
 
Germany's economy may have been flying but England's food rationing didn't end until 1954. I remember a long time friend saying that British motorcycles of that period were all built down to a price. All I've ever seen were drawings of the four and some castings. Maybe it was for the best. The four in a featherbed was uglier than a Weslake in my featherbed.
The point I was making is this; In Germany by 1946 price controls were abolished (brought in Nazi regime in 34), a year later rationing stopped the effect was to stimulate the their economy. By 52 their GDP was soaring. In the Uk we struggled, the Marshall plan was crippling; the negotiations put Maynard Keynes into an early grave, our industry was buggered and a nationalisation plan tried to save it as one by one heavy industries failed. Why? Instead of looking to the future UK industry failed to invest (not just in Motocycles) and looked for turnover. As a result we were left behind, production remained largely "by hand" as the UK Government had no money to reinvest whilst our competitors mechanised. The rest is history.

Isn't everything built down to a price?

You've actually seen castings?
 
Britain repaid it's ww2 debt in 2006.... We were had over a barrel by America first by the lend-lease agreement and then, when they screwed us over with that by cancelling it, they offered us a loan so that we didn't get wiped out. All the while companies like IBM were servicing the data logging hardware for the Nazis, Standard Oil were supplying tetraethyl lead to the Nazis (without which the luftwaffe could never have flown) and coca cola were running hand in hand with the Nazis.

The globe is unfortunately controlled by greedy bastards with no morals or ethics. We're all too undereducated, malnourished and dog tired from being tax slaves to do anything about it.

oo... oooo..... the x factor is about to start..... gotta go.....
 
I saw photos of castings years ago. I think it was in Motorcycle Sport. I could be wrong there. Or it was one of the books I have. I'll do a search.
 
As I said earlier poor pictures and a load of hearsay and that book isn't going to help.

Still not a grain of proof that a full engine ever existed.

Quote "probably the late Cyril Smith" and "talk around the circuit" proves nothing - it's just rumour. Now the publication does say "the very early 50's" and sidecar racing CC was capped at 500 for 1954, before this date the wasn't a CC limit. Before the war a few experimented with supercharged Austin 7 engines and other car based engines could this be what people heard, I guess we'll never know.
 
Who knows... not disagreeing with you.... that is all I could find in the library. It does say in the Built for Speed book that no one is certain that the 4 ran, but sounds like the single had some test time. One would think that if the 4 actually ran, there would be more info out there somewhere given the amount of ink on Norton's racing history.
 
One would think that if the 4 actually ran, there would be more info out there somewhere given the amount of ink on Norton's racing history.
Considering the Gilera 4 and MV 4 you might think there would be more evidence of the Norton 4. Given the success of both Italian marks you would think Norton would reprise their 4 but they didn't and that one thought convinces me it never ran or it was never intended as a 500.
 
Considering the Gilera 4 and MV 4 you might think there would be more evidence of the Norton 4. Given the success of both Italian marks you would think Norton would reprise their 4 but they didn't and that one thought convinces me it never ran or it was never intended as a 500.
Had the pleasure of watching Giacomo on the MV at the Senior TT. Can't remember if it was a 3 or 4. Not sure it would have mattered what he was on.

More importantly.... to me anyway... what do you use to strip off all of the baked on Hermetite, R40, and blood from magnesium? The skin removing stuff I normally use for "aluminium" (seeing as how it's British alloy) states that it shouldn't be used on magnesium. Maybe it's time to actually pull the trigger and get an ultrasonic cleaner. Been waffling about it forever, but the bride is getting cranky about the foul smells emanating from the garage.
 
Had the pleasure of watching Giacomo on the MV at the Senior TT. Can't remember if it was a 3 or 4. Not sure it would have mattered what he was on.

More importantly.... to me anyway... what do you use to strip off all of the baked on Hermetite, R40, and blood from magnesium? The skin removing stuff I normally use for "aluminium" (seeing as how it's British alloy) states that it shouldn't be used on magnesium. Maybe it's time to actually pull the trigger and get an ultrasonic cleaner. Been waffling about it forever, but the bride is getting cranky about the foul smells emanating from the garage.
Get a big bucket fill it with thinners and put the cases in. Leave for a day or so. Or use solvent (NOT water) based paint stripper but be careful and try a small area 1st.

Ultrasonic cleaners might help but usually for this sort of job you need solvents most ultrasonics use water based cleaners. Also the better cleaners circulate the fluid and keep all agitated.

Don't use hematite or similar products. Use Wellseal, a good coat on each surface allow to dry say 20mins and assemble, wipes of with thinners 10 years later!

Good luck!

Just a thought some paint brush restoring products are pretty good too especially for removing baked on "R".
 
Get a big bucket fill it with thinners and put the cases in. Leave for a day or so. Or use solvent (NOT water) based paint stripper but be careful and try a small area 1st.

Ultrasonic cleaners might help but usually for this sort of job you need solvents most ultrasonics use water based cleaners. Also the better cleaners circulate the fluid and keep all agitated.

Don't use hematite or similar products. Use Wellseal, a good coat on each surface allow to dry say 20mins and assemble, wipes of with thinners 10 years later!

Good luck!

Just a thought some paint brush restoring products are pretty good too especially for removing baked on "R".
Thanks. Couldn't take it any longer and bought an ultrasonic cleaner last night. Just a 10L, but it's cleaning the small bits that drives me nuts. Plus I'm challenged when it comes to space. I'll check out the Wellseal. Haven't used hematite since the dark ages and I hate it anyway. Been using...sparingly... high temp 3 Bond (Yama/Honda Bond) with good results and it doesn't contrast with alloy cases. As for the magnesium bits, I'll try the bucket of thinners. I'm not sure I want them to look too nice. I think some patina is appropriate for this one. I horse traded for a new cylinder from Ian Bennett and it's made with a more modern alloy. It almost glows in the dark, so I'm thinking of kicking it around the shop floor a few times to give it some character.
 
Thanks. Couldn't take it any longer and bought an ultrasonic cleaner last night. Just a 10L, but it's cleaning the small bits that drives me nuts. Plus I'm challenged when it comes to space. I'll check out the Wellseal. Haven't used hematite since the dark ages and I hate it anyway. Been using...sparingly... high temp 3 Bond (Yama/Honda Bond) with good results and it doesn't contrast with alloy cases. As for the magnesium bits, I'll try the bucket of thinners. I'm not sure I want them to look too nice. I think some patina is appropriate for this one. I horse traded for a new cylinder from Ian Bennett and it's made with a more modern alloy. It almost glows in the dark, so I'm thinking of kicking it around the shop floor a few times to give it some character.
Build and use patina comes soon enough.

Originally Norton didn't use any sealant just a bit of grease. Wellseal doesn't harden.

Hopefully the ultrasonic you have is a heated type and has a lid. Unfortunately it will make a fair racket they always do.
 
Do show a picture of your ultrasonic cleaner with before and after pics to demonstrate how much better it works than Mrs Cyorgs dishwasher.
I'm still baffled on how I got away with the last batch, although she's been off her feed a bit lately. I'll post some pics of the ultrasonic. I didn't go with the cheapest one, but also didn't want to spend a pile on something made you know where. It had decent reviews assuming they were legit. Looking forward to giving it a try.
 
Hopefully the ultrasonic you have is a heated type and has a lid. Unfortunately it will make a fair racket they always do.
I can vouch for that. Mine sounds like a dozen amphetamine charged skeletons breakdancing in a tin bath full of rattlesnakes.

Be careful what you use in it if it is a heated bath as low flashpoint solvent mixes can be extremely dangerous.

I started out with just plain old water in mine and it did a reasonable job (the beauty of ultrasonic cleaning is the mechanical action of cavitation bubbles collapsing against the surface of the part being cleaned)

The cleaning substance you add to the bath helps with breaking down the gummy, oily residues but if you're doing it properly you should be giving the parts a good clean and degrease before they go in the ultrasonic bath.

I'm using sea clean 2 concentrate at a maximum strength of 1:100 with water at 45 deg C and getting good results:

Metal Aluminum can Tin


This piston had 30 year old gum and carbon caked on and it came up like new.
 
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