[jalsteve]

"A local bike-shop bought that 650cc racer with the blown engine from Ed and they were pissed because there were no racing parts in the engine, Ed had just blueprinted the engine and modified the stock parts so they worked much better, he also did lots of testing at the drag-strip to get the exhaust and intake-tract length optimized which he said made a big difference in power."

This isn't a surprise at all. Back in period there wasn't much available unlike today.

Most of the period race engines that are road / production based used modified internals. The Norton twins' weak point was conrods and crank but by 1961 Norton start fitting nodular iron cranks (spherical graphite) to it sports bikes 88ss, 99ss and 650ss, also other AMC twins like Matchless and AJS CSR twins too. This pretty much sorted the crank braking issues. Rods were still suspect however so were regularly changed but always balanced and polished.

Nimonic steel valves were a usual mod (factory race kit and available to buy) much stronger than standard and perfect fitted valve spring length by shimming under the lower cup. There wasn't a huge amount you could do regarding camming either, as wide-ish valve angles made radical timing almost impossible without pocketing valves / pistons and loosing compression. As for race pistons? There was virtually nothing available so standard high compression SS pistons with a head skim either 20, 40, 60 thou to raise the ration a little more was also normal. But even standard high comp 650ss pistons are a difficult find today. Its fair to say that most internal engine mods were about reliability and not purely seeking peak horsepower. Utilisation of inlet and exhaust pulse was were most radical work was done by factory and home tuner (if they had the money).

Interestingly Triumphs Thruxton T120 bikes from 65 (factory specials) were quite standard except for cams and followers, 40 or 60 thou head skim, a good port shape and 1 3/16 monoblocs, with stepped down small bore header pipes (with balance) all good for 135mph with a fairing. Likewise AJS and matchless factory prepared racers were similarly prepared. Or rather nothing special. I have owned a genuine Triumph Thruxton Bonneville from 65 and AJS Model 31 CSR Thruxton from 61.

I guess when thinking about some of these older bikes you have to set aside modern ideas and think "period".

If the bike is looking for a new home, it can come over this side of the pond and live in my workshop and in the company of Manx's, race Domi's and even the odd XRTT after a little sympathetic and gentle preservation.

 

[Cyorg]

The magneto is one sold by Joe Hunt at one time. I have the same mag that used to be on a Norton race-bike. The only difference on my mag is the finned cover actually says "Joe Hunt" on it, probably just an earlier or later run of castings. I e-mailed Hunt about it a number of years ago and they did not have much to say about it except that if I wanted replacement parts for it that they would have to see the mag or good photos of it's points etc. before they could tell me if they could supply them.

If it turns out that you need points and Joe Hunt can't supply them, then let me know. I seem to have a collection of NOS points and may be able to match something up.
If that mag was built in the USA, there is a slight chance I have something that would work as is or could be modified to work. Or as in the dark ages, maybe you could replace the points (see top left of photo) in the points if the rubbing block is still serviceable.

Jalsteve.... I have a box of oddball British pistons too. Some prewar. Chances are slim, but you never know....

 

[Brent Halverson]

by 1961 Norton start fitting nodular iron cranks (spherical graphite) to it sports bikes 88ss, 99ss and 650ss,

Wrong. Norton cranks were always forged steel with a cast-iron central flywheel. Being an SS made no difference at all, the same cranks were used in all the bikes across the board. For 1961 the 88/99 cranks were made stronger by making the internal sludge-trap smaller diameter, thus increasing the thickness of the rod-journal wall. Triumph bikes also had steel cranks with iron flywheels. It was Matchless that had the all-iron one-piece crank which switched to nodular iron about 1961.

There wasn't a huge amount you could do regarding camming either, as wide-ish valve angles made radical timing almost impossible without pocketing valves / pistons and loosing compression. As for race pistons? There was virtually nothing available so standard high compression SS pistons with a head skim either 20, 40, 60 thou to raise the ration a little more was also normal. But even standard high comp 650ss pistons are a difficult find today. Utilisation of inlet and exhaust pulse was were most radical work was done by factory and home tuner (if they had the money).

Anyone should know the Norton twin had a narrow valve angle compared to the BSA or Triumph pre-unit twins, so would have less problems with cam timing and high compression, and anyone should know the 650ss got 9:1 compression with a flat-top piston while the Trumph and BSA 650s needed domes for the same ratio. The 650ss did not have any higher compression pistons than any other 650cc Norton twin, but there was a domed piston for the 99 that was sold by Norton starting in the late 1950s that was an option, and people put those into 650cc bikes sometimes after shaping the skirt for the larger 650 flywheel. Ed Bilton-Smith had the backside of his standard 650 camshaft ground to a smaller radius and he did not have to "pocket the valves". Any competent mechanic checks valve-piston clearance, so that point is moot. Taking advantage of intake and exhaust pulse cost the least of any engine modification as all it entails is making the exhaust pipes or intake manifolds longer or shorter, very easily and cheaply done.

The lesson is that the person who does the most talking might not know the most, but just enjoys hearing themselves talk the most.......

 

[XB33BSA]

how about a nitro burning TT120RR ?

 

[kenessex]

Wrong. Norton cranks were always forged steel with a cast-iron central flywheel. Being an SS made no difference at all, the same cranks were used in all the bikes across the board. For 1961 the 88/99 cranks were made stronger by making the internal sludge-trap smaller diameter, thus increasing the thickness of the rod-journal wall. Triumph bikes also had steel cranks with iron flywheels. It was Matchless that had the all-iron one-piece crank which switched to nodular iron about 1961.



Anyone should know the Norton twin had a narrow valve angle compared to the BSA or Triumph pre-unit twins, so would have less problems with cam timing and high compression, and anyone should know the 650ss got 9:1 compression with a flat-top piston while the Trumph and BSA 650s needed domes for the same ratio. The 650ss did not have any higher compression pistons than any other 650cc Norton twin, but there was a domed piston for the 99 that was sold by Norton starting in the late 1950s that was an option, and people put those into 650cc bikes sometimes after shaping the skirt for the larger 650 flywheel. Ed Bilton-Smith had the backside of his standard 650 camshaft ground to a smaller radius and he did not have to "pocket the valves". Any competent mechanic checks valve-piston clearance, so that point is moot. Taking advantage of intake and exhaust pulse cost the least of any engine modification as all it entails is making the exhaust pipes or intake manifolds longer or shorter, very easily and cheaply done.

The lesson is that the person who does the most talking might not know the most, but just enjoys hearing themselves talk the most.......

That was pretty much of a dick reply. Are you as big of a know-it-all dick in real life as you come across on here? SO far you have made 2 posts and managed to deliberately call out and insult 2 of the regulars on here. Paul and Jalsteve have both been on here a while and have shared lots with the members on here. I think they both have established credentials via work ending up in publications and on racetracks. Just who are you, what have you done and why should I care?

Your attitude sucks. I hope you come across better in person.

Have a sparkly day,

 

[jalsteve]

Wrong. Norton cranks were always forged steel with a cast-iron central flywheel. Being an SS made no difference at all, the same cranks were used in all the bikes across the board. For 1961 the 88/99 cranks were made stronger by making the internal sludge-trap smaller diameter, thus increasing the thickness of the rod-journal wall. Triumph bikes also had steel cranks with iron flywheels. It was Matchless that had the all-iron one-piece crank which switched to nodular iron about 1961.



Anyone should know the Norton twin had a narrow valve angle compared to the BSA or Triumph pre-unit twins, so would have less problems with cam timing and high compression, and anyone should know the 650ss got 9:1 compression with a flat-top piston while the Trumph and BSA 650s needed domes for the same ratio. The 650ss did not have any higher compression pistons than any other 650cc Norton twin, but there was a domed piston for the 99 that was sold by Norton starting in the late 1950s that was an option, and people put those into 650cc bikes sometimes after shaping the skirt for the larger 650 flywheel. Ed Bilton-Smith had the backside of his standard 650 camshaft ground to a smaller radius and he did not have to "pocket the valves". Any competent mechanic checks valve-piston clearance, so that point is moot. Taking advantage of intake and exhaust pulse cost the least of any engine modification as all it entails is making the exhaust pipes or intake manifolds longer or shorter, very easily and cheaply done.

The lesson is that the person who does the most talking might not know the most, but just enjoys hearing themselves talk the most.......

I usually can't be arsed with shit like this.

A few facts here - Yes Norton twin cranks are forged but there was indeed a material change in Norton cranks around 1960, Norton published a bulletin in one off the weekly mags either Motorcycling or The Motorcycle. Norton cranks broke when pushed hard so did Triumph, AJS and Matchless just broke!!! But the same material was adopted by AJS and Matchless to cure their crank failure issues in from 1961 (works and TT marshals bikes got the stronger crank in earlier). I don't think Triumph ever changed they seemed to snap in the same place on unit T120 and T140!

Speaking of valve angles - everything is relative and I said "ish" referring to Norton, I wasn't comparing to Triumph or BSA you did that. Its a simple fact that engines from this period had little scope for generating big rear wheel HP increases over standard, stepping from mid 40's to mid 50's or perhaps a little more was about as much as you could get from a 650 unless grenades are your thing. Reducing cam base circles or altering follower radius are minor mods on standard kit which was normal stuff to do but that's hardly radical is it. Neither are raised dome Domi pistons. To reiterate my point there was little available so you worked with what you had or could get. If you would take the time to read what I wrote you might feel less inclined to shoot from the hip. I have built more "proper" race engines than I care to remember from 4 stroke GP singles and twins to 2 stroke multis and have a good knowledge of the fitting process. Stepping from a engine like a Manx in which much can be altered to a road pepped parallel twin is bit like getting off a thoroughbred and jumping an a cart horse so I can be a little dismissive or understate the work required to make a pushrod engine go well. And for God sakes don't mention the Norton domiracer....

Surprisingly I have never had a well sorted 99 / 650 make more power than a sorted unit T120 with its wide valve angles and high domed pistons - I have built quite a few of both. In fact the 31CSR I had with a head skim, sports cams and single carb would leave a 650ss for dead and pulled a healthy 126mph at Snetterton.

What are you building at the moment?

View attachment 91354

Look we are both knowledgeable guys and with prostate permitting we can have a pissing competition but you can stuff the "but just enjoys hearing themselves talk the most" last word freak thing straight back up your arse.

 

[XB33BSA]

I usually can't be arsed with shit like this.

A few facts here - Yes Norton twin cranks are forged but there was indeed a material change in Norton cranks around 1960, Norton published a bulletin in one off the weekly mags either Motorcycling or The Motorcycle. Norton cranks broke when pushed hard so did Triumph, AJS and Matchless just broke!!! But the same material was adopted by AJS and Matchless to cure their crank failure issues in from 1961 (works and TT marshals bikes got the stronger crank in earlier). I don't think Triumph ever changed they seemed to snap in the same place on unit T120 and T140!

Speaking of valve angles - everything is relative and I said "ish" referring to Norton, I wasn't comparing to Triumph or BSA you did that. Its a simple fact that engines from this period had little scope for generating big rear wheel HP increases over standard, stepping from mid 40's to mid 50's or perhaps a little more was about as much as you could get from a 650 unless grenades are your thing. Reducing cam base circles or altering follower radius are minor mods on standard kit which was normal stuff to do but that's hardly radical is it. Neither are raised dome Domi pistons. To reiterate my point there was little available so you worked with what you had or could get. If you would take the time to read what I wrote you might feel less inclined to shoot from the hip. I have built more "proper" race engines than I care to remember from 4 stroke GP singles and twins to 2 stroke multis and have a good knowledge of the fitting process. Stepping from a engine like a Manx in which much can be altered to a road pepped parallel twin is bit like getting off a thoroughbred and jumping an a cart horse so I can be a little dismissive or understate the work required to make a pushrod engine go well. And for God sakes don't mention the Norton domiracer....

Surprisingly I have never had a well sorted 99 / 650 make more power than a sorted unit T120 with its wide valve angles and high domed pistons - I have built quite a few of both. In fact the 31CSR I had with a head skim, sports cams and single carb would leave a 650ss for dead and pulled a healthy 126mph at Snetterton.

What are you building at the moment?

View attachment 91354

Look we are both knowledgeable guys and with prostate permitting we can have a pissing competition but you can stuff the "but just enjoys hearing themselves talk the most" last word freak thing straight back up your arse.

on a side note do you use any slick coatings on parts that can benefit from it ?ie piston skirt thrust faces,cam lobes,non rolling element lifter faces etc ?i started using
it in 1980 orv so when a friend of mine multi-time national champion sidecar racer larry coleman, who was sponsored by kal-gard, introduced it to us...
my experience esp on 2 stroke pistons is that it is/was quite beneficial
on my own race bikes ,air-cooled jobs, kawasaki and rotax

coleman piloting the number one

 

[XB33BSA]

Your cams should be marked, if not you'll need to measure lift and duration but figures can vary due to wear and tear or just buy a new set to be sure. Vernier cams work well for perfect timing you can also alter timing to suit riding style or conditions. Goldies are notorious for not starting hot or cold. I have found that induction is lazy and the plug is often a dry as a bone despite carb/float flooding and kick priming. Remember cam form is a combination of cam, follower and rocker ratio.

Most British gearboxes are car like.

once i dropped the cr down to a sane level for my use ,just cruising around here on public roads..once that was sorted it has never given me any starting issues
i can almost always get it fired up first kick hot or cold
of course my starting prep and procedure are perfection but only because over the years i have always had enough interest to read and memorise every bit of information from qualified sources about how to do it ecactly thev way it must be done
i think the word kick, is what throws a lot off on how to get a good spin going
besides of course having the crank in position, kicking, lol at the pedal is of no use
the lever needs be positioned as high as possible in its stroke with a good solid sector engagement
then its down to being coordinated enough to get body weight launched up by pushing up off the left peg
then as you come back down the right leg is extended
this gives a smooth long powerful stroke every time
it is the only way to get good crankshaft spin/inertia right on thru ex stroke and back down into intake stroke/comp stroke
my mag must have good maggots innit
i put in new points,gapped correctly and cigartette paper timed full pull on advancer to be the recomended degrees before tdc ,cant even remember what that was but
at full retard it idles slower than i would have thought possible
a few trial aned error sessions gave me a short range of advancer lever positions to clock to when starting
and the lever fully released gives max advance position according to my information
i've been careful to not ever get greedy on the advancer,during starting ,that is never think it needs more advance to start .. i hate it when shit kicks back
when hot i always give it a few gentle clean out spins with wot and decompression lever fully engaged and the sprk fully retarded
i think that is the key to a hot start as fresh cool as possoble charge

i fantasize of a compressed gas (i would use dry nitrogen of course) nitrogen starting system for it
learning to start the huge single cylinder ajax nat gas compressor units is what has gotten me thinking of this
of course incorecctly designed and applied could lead to scrap metal ,but i do want to build it just for kicks lol
it will absolutely work ,way betterb than we can imagine
a cam drive operated switching valve would only allow the starting gas tom be introduced for a very specific short time ,as in 45 degrees or more past tdc on the power stroke then shutting it off i dunno somewhere shy of bdc
a small very high pressure gas bottle would be be needed on the bike then a small secondary chamber to supply a limited volume at whatever pressure is ,from testing,determined to be ideal
the seconday chamber and its ability to be recharged with only limited volume is a safety deal
the cam operated switching valve will fully discharge the starting chamber to atmosphere as soon as it shuts off the incoming charge
and the starting gas charge is going to be introduced into the comb chamber thru a one shot decompression valve

this way the comb chamber is automatically sealed from the starting system plumbing upon fire
lol its not a race mod strickly for fun and the design exercise will get all kinds of heads spinning
you might laugh but the design is 100% viable it has been in use for over 100 years !!
the system will be much lighter and less obtrusive than e starting
it could be built cvompetely hidden from casual view
- - - Updated - - -

Your cams should be marked, if not you'll need to measure lift and duration but figures can vary due to wear and tear or just buy a new set to be sure. Vernier cams work well for perfect timing you can also alter timing to suit riding style or conditions. Goldies are notorious for not starting hot or cold. I have found that induction is lazy and the plug is often a dry as a bone despite carb/float flooding and kick priming. Remember cam form is a combination of cam, follower and rocker ratio.

Most British gearboxes are car like.

yep and harley pretty much everything was at one time a lay shaft type with input and output coaxial

 

[kenessex]

Just fit a Coffman starter. It worked for Jimmy Stewart, so it should work for you. I just generally bump start my 500 single race bikes, except the Ascot, I kept the electric starter on it and it even has stock compression. Bump starting a 12.5:1 500 single with slicks on grass takes some experience and skill. I got pretty good at it.

 

[jalsteve]

on a side note do you use any slick coatings on parts that can benefit from it ?ie piston skirt thrust faces,cam lobes,non rolling element lifter faces etc ?i started using
it in 1980 orv so when a friend of mine multi-time national champion sidecar racer larry coleman, who was sponsored by kal-gard, introduced it to us...
my experience esp on 2 stroke pistons is that it is/was quite beneficial
on my own race bikes ,air-cooled jobs, kawasaki and rotax

coleman piloting the number one
View attachment 91442

Yes I use oil!

On new builds I use the oil intended for running in or if the engine is just stripped for a check I use the oil the engine has been running on. For general or race use shell bearing engines I use a full 3 ester synthetic, Miller in either 10-60 or 10-40. For running in I use a mineral on steel liners or manufactures recommendation for plated.

I use an assembly lube on plain bearing bottom ends for new assemblies.

For roller bearing race engines either Morris MLR40 or MLR30, I don't use Castrol R although a great oil it too expensive. For road engines a straight 30 or 40 mineral, although I have been using a semi 10-40 specialist classic oil recently again from Millar oils and its excellent (seals great on older engines). I have also used Amsoil monograde full synthetic on some Harley race engines which works well always with a big pump though.

Some guys still mix "R" with fuel as a 2 stroke premix or a little in fuel as an upper cylinder lube - use Castrol R for this DON'T use Morris MLR as its a synthetic blend of castor, detergents and anti corrosives and doesn't mix well with fuel. If using pump fuel in a 2 stroke I will use XR77 (full synthetic) or similar quality BUT if using Avgas / pump fuel mix I use a different oil Castrol a474. But we all our own preferences.

I don't use additives.

 

[XB33BSA]

indeed i to,feel, an oil film is the peak of loobricty ,rare as chicken lips in this digital age however
castor ,yessir i pay attention to frame geology,when sawapping out forks i keep a cloes eye on castor trails ,nothing worse than a customer complaining of soiled shorts from an ill engineered front end lashup that basivcally not mincing words
has reached spontaenious instability
additives? roger that never touch the stuff...... well i am a reminisint old fool not much hearing left but i can smell so so
admitedly i keep a few bottles of blendzall #485 around and use an oz or 2 per galion of gas in all my rides because the smell is so glorious and it turns heads whenever i fire up a heater \
just letting the idler fumes spread ,if someone looks over with a wry grin you know its brightened their day harkening
[h=2]#485 "Gold Label" Racing Castor/Power Booster[/h]

 

[Jruff5585]

Ok, I've been gone and busy the last three weeks with my first daughter getting married in N.J. Just got back home. I see I have some catching up and reading to do. I talked to the shipper on my way through Louisiana this morning, the Seeley gets dropped off in a fortnight then he's off to get the 650. I know it taking a long time but Chad has been moving bikes for me a long time and I dont have to worry about anything.

 

[Brent Halverson]

I usually can't be arsed with shit like this.
A few facts here - Yes Norton twin cranks are forged but there was indeed a material change in Norton cranks around 1960, Norton published a bulletin in one off the weekly mags either Motorcycling or The Motorcycle. Norton cranks broke when pushed hard so did Triumph, AJS and Matchless just broke!!! But the same material was adopted by AJS and Matchless to cure their crank failure issues in from 1961 (works and TT marshals bikes got the stronger crank in earlier). I don't think Triumph ever changed they seemed to snap in the same place on unit T120 and T140!

Pssssst. Norton did not sell a 650cc twin, the subject of this thread, until the 1961 model year, so your information on crank material for Nortons, which I don't believe anyway, would be irrelevant. Again, AJS and Matchless could not "adopt" the same material as Norton as their twin cranks were nodular iron, Norton cranks were steel except for the central flywheel. Matchless started the nodular iron in their cranks around 1960, my old man was a Matchless dealer/racer right at that time. The improvement Norton made in 88/99 cranks for 1960 was not in material, but in simply making the wall of the rod journals much thicker.

 

[jalsteve]

Well it only took you 5 years to reply.

The noddy cranks on AJS and Matchless CSR’s became standard fitment around 1962 however some 61 bikes got them. How do I know? Well I owned a 1961 factory prepared Thruxton, one of only a handful. Only marketed as an AJS and complete with Nodular crank and just one old Racer owner before me who raced it in the Thruxton and 1000km that year. It was absolutely original complete with battle scares and more paperwork from the AJS comp shop and Fred Neill regarding engine build spec and factory rebuilds that if bound up it would make an A4 book 3” thick. Not hearsay but fact.

It’s also a recorded fact that Matchless and AJS, also owned by AMC, adopted the same material as Norton cranks. I think i mentioned this in above posts. Interestingly Matchless / AJS crank breakages have been long discussed as to why so many failures, not just on the 650 twins but 600 and 500 twins too. One theory is bottom end flex, another is material and another is a lack of rigidity from the crank mouth up. I know of several racers in period who suffered crank failures on early machines but under advice fitted a 3/8" plate above the engine to brace top end and never had another failure - ugly but effective. Again recorded in period.

I didn’t mention anything about 650ss prior to 1961 however the 1st 650ss Manxman where built from 7 November 1960, the 1st bikes landed in the US before 1961.

Anyway have a good’un.

I only visit this forum every once in a while.......it helps me sleep.

 

[Sluggo503]

I know nothing about Nortons, I have been in the market for one and just bought this on eBay. I may have a POS or not. I have never bought a Ike on eBay and I'm quite nervous about it. View attachment 88689

Bob Waring has since passed on and one of the two previous owners of this bike
Frame#: 20 1048xx
The 2nd owner of this 650SS was Sir Edward Bilton-Smith. The title for this bike is from 1974 and the name shown on the title is Edward C. Bilton-Smith. If you do a quick search on y0utube for "Sir Eddy Edward Bilton-Smith Norton Celebration of Life" video you will see this very same Norton 650SS you see here on eBay shown in that video at 3:29 into the video.

Here is a pic of the bike from the video when Edward C. Bilton-Smith owned it View attachment 88697

Hi, new member and reviving a old thread I was surprised to find on a websearch.
You SHOULD be nervous!! Some one sold you a load of Bull excrement!

I know this as a fact. I was friends with Eddy Bilton-Smith for 30+/- years and marketed him and his products and services.

Fun Fact: In our circle of friends we knew a lot of Ed's, so we decided each would get a nickname & "Male Model Ed" came up with "SirEdward" Because he was English & a royal PIA. Later some guys nicknamed me "Squire Doug".

I'm not sure how a title ended up in Eddies name from 1974 but none of it makes sense. The time line is totally off as well. I know all the details and I have his original frame and bodywork from the bike and his engine build notes and racing logbook noting specs, settings and tuning data as well as changes and experiments.

If you have questions, let me know, but here's the high points.

Eddy immigrated from the UK in late 50s and served a abbreviated term in the US Air Force to get US citizenship but got out early. ( The USAF wasn't happy and neither was Eddy)

Eddy was a talented Tool & Die machinist & earned his wings under apprenticeship at Glacier bearings in the UK and working a variety of jobs here in the US. He ordered a new Norton Manxman thru Archie Stanley here in Portland Oregon and the very 1st Manxman in the Western US.

Eddy tore it apart and blueprinted it and mild performance upgrades, and I see some one quoted me from Access Norton on the cam specs, Eddy used to call the UK and talked to several tuners but the cam idea came from Paul Dunstall.

Over several years he upgraded it, and here's where your story goes sideways. Eddy swapped the original frame for a Manx rolling chassis. Those are lighter chrome moly Reynolds 530. Manx hubs and forks.
The Manxman 650 is a bit different than a 650SS but the salient point is the Manxman twins used a regular road going frame, forks and wheels. The Manx 500 single is a whole different kettle of fish.

At one point, famous Racer, mostly known for Triumphs, Sonny Burres was racing a Norton in TT, he asked if he could use Sir Eddies engine so Eddy swapped it into the dirt track chassis. Sonny is still alive and can confirm this. Sonny is a very talented racer, and a good wrench but Eddy was in his own realm so Sonny knew his best chance to win was Eddies engine.

They went to the national up in Idaho where Sonny won the race and TL Hoagland, Eddy's best friend won his class on a Norton that Eddy also built & tuned.

THAT'S the picture on the cover of the magazine, not this bike. But Sir Eddies engine in Sonny's bike, TL Hoagland and " Noted tuner Ed Bilton-Smith" standing in between.

This led to Berliner offering appearance money to race in California "As long as Norton wins, I don't care who is riding ".

During a tuning session at Portland PIR local racer Glenn Adams asked to take it around the track. He purposely laid it over to starve the oil and revved it till it grenaded.

Eddy was devastated but tuned Sonny's engine but it wasn't as fast, Berliner caught on and was angry. Eddy quit racing. Allied Motors called and offered a lot of money for the blown engine. They were angry nothing was tricked out or custom thinking they would learn Eddie's tricks not understanding what really happened.

Eddy sold the rolling chassis in 65-66. But that was the Manx chassis. Years later in 1990s I bought a basket case Manxman with parts of a 750 Atlas motor and a abused gearbox. Several people had raced the Manxman chassis and drag racing as well with different engines. I have the original tank, red seat, and bodywork including stock fenders and the Blue oil tank and toolbox/battery box but the frame was repainted weird green and some one drilled a ton of holes in the mounting plates.

There's no way you have Sir Eddies matching numbers engine and frame. The engine was blown up, sold and scrapped. I have the original frame and parts.
* I bought another 650 motor but it's not the original. I'm building the bike back to the original specs prior to the Manx 500 frame swap.

** In the early 2000s Eddy called me and wanted to go racing again and building a landspeed record bike. Our team was Eddy, Les at Littles engine service, Fairly Honest Mike of F&W fame and me. We purchased a cafe racer Dommi 500 from the UK and imported it. However it was too weak and spindly, so I showed it as a period cafe bike still with the UK plates at the San Jose All British Clubmans show, but sold it a few months later. We built the LSR out of pieces and I supplied most of the engine which we built a very custom 270 degree 500 out of a 750. ( Long story about that)

So, Eddy and Les built a Honda for his son to race in the early 80s, and in late 70s Eddy built "Horton" which was a built CB750 big bore 810cc Honda SOHC/4 in a Commando chassis. I sold Horton for Eddy on FeeBay but after Eddie died, one of his sons tracked down Horton and bought it back.

Eddy and I were promoting the LSR project and were at the INOA Norton rally in Oregon mid 2000s, We also had Horton and a Norton Commando Hi rider at that event if any of you were there. ( Eddy was ill & in a foul mood so apologies if you got yelled at)

I have no idea where a title for a bike that doesn't exist from 1974 came from, but some one got creative.

 

[Sluggo503]

This is the real Sir Edward at the track up in BC Canada that is now a housing development but was called "Westwood".

My friend Todd Copan ran for many years the bike show and swap meet in Tswassen BC Canada and some time in the Mid 2000s I was up there promoting the NW Vintage Car and motorcycle museum here in Oregon and events I was promoting at our museum, I came across a bunch of guys promoting the former racing club that put on events at Westwood.

Among the photos I noticed pictures that had Eddy in them, so I called Eddy and told him, walked up and pretended to be angry with them not having Eddy's permission and I was his promoter and manager. Copyright and they owed us money 💰 🤑!!!

They were horrified and embarrassed....🤣😜😳, Ha! Canadians!!! Always so polite!

So, I had to calm them down they were not in trouble and I was not mad at them, nor was Eddy. But they remembered him and I handed them my phone and they exchanged information, as result, one of them wrote a hilarious story from their point of view of the mad Englishman from Oregon who came up and raced in their events.

Eddy was living here in Portland Oregon, but raced all over road racing but also drag racing in 1/8th mile and 1/4 mile events, and as mentioned he installed his engine in Sonny Burres dirt tracker TT bike.

After the Glen Adams debacle, Eddy was raising a family and was so upset about the incident he decided to quit racing and focus on work and family. * I might be wrong on the exact year Eddy sold the chassis, but I am certain it wasn't as late as 74.

He was a multi talented guy, and later he started offering custom parts and specialized engine blue printing I was promoting. There's a lot more, a heck of a lot more, but I hope that answers what the real story is. 2nd owner! Sheesh 🙄!!

 

[Sluggo503]

Here's the actual frame in storage, I will mock it up soon as I plan to take it to the INOA rally.
Somebody painted it green and went to town on the mount plates, they transmission was heavily modified as well, 3/4" alloy plate welded on to beef up the main & layshaft bearings.
You can see the original blue factory paint on the tool/battery box, the factory paint is over the factory black and different shade from the fuel tank.