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Discussion Starter #21
quote:Originally posted by freedomgli

A friend of mine is decidedly a "buy American" type of guy. He's a gun-owning Republican who serves in the Virginia Army National Guard and he has two Harley-Davidson motorcycles. In addition, he owns four Chevrolet Corvettes, Pontiac Fiero, and diesel Dodge Ram truck. See what I mean? He is an active member of his local HOG chapter and is a "Road Captain" and rides in Rolling Thunder every year. Basically, he loves the spirit of H-D but he is put off by the overbearing corporatism of the brand and he hates how most of the merchandise is made in China despite the high retail prices. He even makes it a point to tell his dealership and fellow riders how much he wishes more H-D stuff was made in America but he feels like his voice is being ignored at the company's peril. But then again capitalism is the most prominent American ideal and capitalism doesn't give a shit about patriotism or quality of life of the Americans who serve under its rules. It's all rather ironic.
The ideal is splendid..... at what point do we withdraw the notion that we are truly supporting a corporate machine with the same ideals? 5%, 10% or what percent of outsourced content?

I dont know the numbers for his cages

but for the MoCo's stuff...... their numbers have been dramatically higher than the previously mentioned smallish numbers for many years..... which is why I will not patronize them.

Now if they knocked off all the phoney patriotism and flag whoring replacing it with forthright and candid disclosure......

I would at least reconsider although it would likely require that and private ownership

Same for all of them
 

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quote:Originally posted by Swagger

There's always the farm implement market. I can see it now, black and orange silage grinders and snow plow attachments for the Canadian 4x4 quad we use. Could be just what The Company needs!
Works for Maserati and Lamborghini (tractors and industrial equipment):D

PJ
 

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I had a minute a couple weeks ago and went by the local moco dealership. what a massive disapointment. The employees were self satisfied and numb, shelves of shit for sale: shit for your car, shit for your house, shit to wear, shit to drink from. the bikes were as forgetable and cartoonish as a black velvet sad elvis painting. never mind the bike that rocked my world was a 72 superglide and the KR XR bikes at full song are as cool as bikes get IMHO. the moco has sold it's soul (congratulations marketing department), they'll get nothing from me. thanks for asking. cheers, bcr
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Bossman, ya tolt me ya hada hard time understanding me and since then there is strong evidence which indicates you've learned the lingo.
 

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A funny thing happened a few months back. I needed a new pair of boots. Now years ago, I was a dedicated Red Wing guy. Years before they became hip. They used to be just good work boots. But they're not cheap, and cash is tight. So after blowing out of my third (or forth) pair of Hi-Tec boots (cheap, very comfortable, made in China), I go to Harry's Army Navy to buy some real boots. I try on two pair of Red Wings. One is a traditional leather work boot, good to go, made in the USA. Was surprised to see the tag. The other is a hiking type, a lighter, more comfy thing, and cheaper. Made in China. Not surprised to see the tag.

Expensive, less comfortable, made in USA.

Less expensive, more comfortable, made in China.

I was bewildered. I finally had a choice. Both were Red Wings. What to do?

I bought the boots made by my neighbor, and countryman. Probably lives 1500 miles away from me, out by Judey, or God only knows.

My little gesture, but I hope it keeps him in a job for the next day or so.

Is that what you're talking about, Hack?
 

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Leo- what he is trying to say is: motivated by the need for autonomous communication, we now explore a design for arguing that courseware and XML that are continuously incompatible. Along these same lines, figures depicting the relationship between the skin and the location-identity split are juxtaposed. Hack's algorithm does not require such structured study to run correctly, but it doesn't hurt. Though cryptographers rarely assume the exact opposite, our framework depends on this property for correct behavior. The question is, will SML or MLXL satisfy all of these assumptions? It is. cheers, bcr
 

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quote:Leo- what he is trying to say is: motivated by the need for autonomous communication, we now explore a design for arguing that courseware and XML that are continuously incompatible. Along these same lines, figures depicting the relationship between the skin and the location-identity split are juxtaposed. Hack's algorithm does not require such structured study to run correctly, but it doesn't hurt. Though cryptographers rarely assume the exact opposite, our framework depends on this property for correct behavior. The question is, will SML or MLXL satisfy all of these assumptions? It is. cheers, bcr
Hit the nail on the head. Thanks, Man. I get it now. HackA and I are on the same page.

Cheers!
 

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quote:Originally posted by HackAsaw

Idealogically, do any of you have any alligience to the MoCo since they remain the only American motorcycle company

um....what about Victory? Based in Minn, and built entirely in the USA, or do you not count as an American motorcycle company unless you are raping domestic and foreign cultures with merch in a starbucks like fashion?

Surprisingly enough I have strong feelings about HD bikes, I also have strong opposite feelings about most of the people who purchase them. A Buell has and always will be on my short list of bikes to own, as is a springer softail, and xr750, and a tank shift flathead or panhead. I just don't like sitting around talking chrome bolt ons with people that don't change their own oil, or worse hearing how great the mo-co is from a guy that doesn't really know bikes but will tell me how HD is the ONLY bike out there ever for anybody.

but what kind allegiance are you looking for? I doubt you will find anyone here that would buy only HDs over all other brands. Even in the real world it will be hard to find a true motorcycle enthusiast (someone who actually knows about motorcycles and not some guy who likes to dress up like a pirate) who is brand loyal to any brand, let alone a bike that has been been systematically pricing out their target audience. Hell, there are just too many cool motorcycles out there these days to be brand loyal to anything.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Victory, ok

Talk to 92 owners about all those failed transmissions they've managed never to fix. Third gear, well documented. After digging about and connecting the dots, I guess I dismissed victory. They'd rather grease the national highway safety guys than step up and do an expensive recall. Best I can tell, thats what happened.

Frankly, I thought they had gone out of business, but, are they making, or have they ever made a 100% american bike?

Last I knew they outsourced just like everyone else and in a nutshell, its a shame most people dont care and wouldnt suffer owning a ride possibly less stellar even if it truly were 100% american.
 

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in my little world,i used make fine furniture most of the time (a product) but the race to the bottom (crappy cheap furniture made in asia)there years ago bent my livelyhood to fixing and improving people homes (a service). h.d. servicer types will flourish well beyond our lifetimes. they can't be outsourced. making a usa bike, sport, touring, cruiser, whatever, seems to be an irrelevent ideal.
-parks
 

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So we've become a nation that services other country's goods. Excellent.

Two biggest job growth sectors have been health care and service industry, mostly because you can't outsource either.
 

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according to Victory, all components of victory V92c motorcycles are made in either Minnesota, Wisconsin, or Iowa with the exception of Brembo brakes and the fuel injection which I think is from England. I have seen people claim that the wiring is Japanese but never seen anything to back that up. For a long time Victory had in their press materials that the bike had more American manufactured components than Harley but it has been a long time since I have seen a Victory press kit. Talk to a Victory rep however and they are very proud of the fact that the bikes are American made.

Victory has not gone out of business and like Harley they seem to be one of the few actually making a profit in these hard times (though sales fell 44% in 2009).

Even if they outsourced like Harley, does it make them any less an American company? They are after all Polaris, which is about as American a company as HD ever was or will be. (On a side note Polaris ATV and snowmobile engines are made in the US by Fuji Heavy Industries, but before you condemn them for that General Motors owned 20% of Fuji up until 2005 - and Fuji does not make the motorcycle engines, also in 2005 after GM sold its stake in Fuji Polaris wnet with KTM engines which it manufactures in house). What makes it an American company? if it is by headquarters of the company (as most people regard it) then Victory is an American company. If it is by content of product then I say Victory actually is more American than HD. If it is by where their manufacturing occurs then there is no such thing as a 100% american company and this point is moot. If it is by culture, well HD has like 90 years on victory but give them time.

BTW, Honda Goldwings and Valkyres are made in Marysville, Ohio and have been since 1979 (1980 model year). If I had to guess I would wager they have as many outsourced parts as an HD. The engine and frame are made in house in Ohio. They are probably as american made as a new softail is.

Oh and you want to complain about 92 owners blah blah blah.....how about the thousands of owners of new harleys who are pissed that their overheating fix is to shut down one cylinder in traffic? or the thousands of Ducati owners still waiting for replacement on their sport classic tanks that the factory still can't get together to recall so all they get is ANOTHER defective tank? Or the thousands of 2006 R1 yamaha owners whose bikes consume a quart of oil every 3000 miles and yamaha just told them to suck it up and deal. every company has some screwup that gets a shoddy fix or none at all. I could sit here all day and talk about that, victory is no exception. No company is perfect.
 

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oh, and it has nothing to do with "Greasing" the NTSB or any other organization. When it comes to problems, these government organizations deal in volume and likelihood of catastrophie, so cars and planes get top billing, where as motorcycles do not, espically from lower production sellers like Ducati and Victory. I know from dealing with the Ducati tank issue it takes time for these things to go anywhere - They are aware of the problem, and the safety hazzard, and yet there is still no recall. Just recently (4 years after my bike was made with a defective tank) Ducati has offered a voluntary replacement under "good will" but there is no fix, you just get another crap tank.
 

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Not to derail, but.......

quote:Originally posted by bcrthe bikes were as forgetable and cartoonish as a black velvet sad elvis painting.
Damn....that says it just about perfectly! Thanks. This one goes into my collection of memorable quotes.
 

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quote:Relevancy, unfortunately is not the issue, and certainly isn't even close to driving HD's agenda. Stock price is. And as long as their, or any other company's shareholders can't see past the next quarter, we will continue to see the cascade down the slippery slope the this country has been sliding down for many years now.
I agree wholeheartedly. The shares were a gift, and I would like to see them turn a profit for me... someday. I think one of the biggest problems with business in America is managing based on stock price. Outsourcing component production to China wouldn't bother me so much, if the parts they sent back were of similar quality to what would have been made here, or if some of the savings they realize were passed on to me, the consumer. I don't believe either is the case.
Much of the problem lies in the fact that once they have made every single cost cutting move they can make in the name of maintaining high share prices, what are they going to do in order to maintain the illusion of growth? other than increasing sales, I mean. Although that'd do it too, no?
They should have worked with</u> Erik Buell, and developed a truly innovative engine that produced decent power, worthy of the chassis he had developed, instead of killing the brand. Perhaps even a 90º v-twin? Problem was, they saw the brand as another marketing package to sell the same tired old engineering and funnel new buyers into a traditional H-D, where they could make more money on accessories & lifestyle merchandise.
 

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quote:Originally posted by Judeyramone


I think one of the biggest problems with business in America is managing based on stock price.
Truer words have seldom been spoken. And it doesn't help when managers are paid with stock or options.... Then it also doesn't help that most stock is held by institutional investors, like pension funds, managed by professional money managers, who are hired and fired based on their quarterly portfolio performance. So everyone is chasing rapidly-moving short-term targets that don't have much to do with real, long-term "shareholder value," much less with the value of a company's products or even its profitability (look at the fortunes made in trading stocks of "dot com" companies who never even got their doors open).

What's really ironic about the deep involvement of pension funds in this vicious cycle is that so many pension plan participants have lost their jobs -- and their benefits -- as a result of this short-term stock-market-chasing management focus.

IMHO, this is a deeper, more insidious problem than "outsourcing." If a company can make a good product and enough profit to stay in business, it should be able to; and if not, it shouldn't. It shouldn't matter where in the world it is located. Of course, the playing field ought to be otherwise level, and there's plenty of ranting to be done about that....
 

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Discussion Starter #40
A
quote:Originally posted by Geeto67

oh, and it has nothing to do with "Greasing" the NTSB or any other organization.

It would appear there are many actual owners, that even were told to go piss up a rope while their failed trans was allegedly under warranty, that would say you are talking out the side of your speculative ass. Poke about, its very well documented including resulting bodily harm.


espically from lower production sellers like Ducati and Victory. I know from dealing with the Ducati tank issue it takes time for these things to go anywhere - They are aware of the problem, and the safety hazzard, and yet there is still no recall. Just recently (4 years after my bike was made with a defective tank) Ducati has offered a voluntary replacement under "good will" but there is no fix, you just get another crap tank.

but the topic is about an american made bike...... so victory has less offshore stuff than hd and gm has some itchypuzzi so that makes it copasetic

I'm very sure all the unemployed workers in the usa are quite thrilled these miscegenated whelps of whores arent more tainted..... although they'd still line up to buy them and sadly.... wouldnt foresake all others for a ride that was 100% american
 
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