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Sorry Hack... I've disassembled both OIF Triumph & similar era Jap stuff...

Yep, British industry may well have been living on borrowed time & out of date machinery, but you can't argue that the engineering (oxymoron in this case, I know) that went into those obsolete Brit bikes was leaps & bounds ahead of the fledgling Japanese motorcycle industry. Not at the head of the class, in terms of technology, but they'd been at it for 75+yrs. They knew what they were doing.
Complain all you want about microns... chrome, fit & finish, etc... Japan - at that time - couldn't compete. They were building inexpensive, disposable bikes.

Or look at it this way... English industry was (trying to) build bikes to last indefinitely (unsuccessful), while Japan was trying to build bikes to last 5yrs (or long enough to get them off showroom floor)... and never expected them to still be around 40yrs later.


To make my case... show me 1970 connecting rods from British 650 twins, British & Japanese -Maybe no 650 Japanese twins from that year - I don't know... pick year & displacement... but show me pictures.
 

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Yamaha 650, 1969
 

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Yamaha 650, 1969
 

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How many 1970 cb750's would go 10,000 miles with no catastophic failures?

Plenty.

How many brit bikes in 1970 made it thru the six month warranty period without catastrophic failure?

Not many.

The reason honda is still in biz and the big three brits went under is mainly due to the fact that your assertion couldn't be more wrong.

Case and point... when Triumph wheezed it's last breath.... those years of knowing what they were doing and all that experience to which you refer....

Still was nothing more than the very limit of Mr Turners 1936 design...

which wasn't near close to a world beater then.

I'll conclude by strongly suggesting you are confusing quality engineering and precision workmanship with sex appeal.

I love Brit iron and there are many in my stables. I built everyone of them. Jap bikes? Owned more than I can count.

Don't get silly over a polished rod.

It means nothing nor does it (likely you drooled over one somebody polished failing to realize that once thats done the rod should be peened/blasted back dull) even come close to explaining why the Brits horrific quality, complete lack of modern engineering or cods to start with a non50+ year old designs actually put them out of business because they simply couldn't compete with the superior asian offerings.

I can promise you I love the Brit and American iron like you probably will never be able to....


but I certainly do not cultivate any such delusions about the nature of those beasts as you certainly appear to do.
 

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How many 1970 cb750's would go 10,000 miles with no catastophic failures?

Plenty.

How many brit bikes in 1970 made it thru the six month warranty period without catastrophic failure?

Not many.

The reason honda is still in biz and the big three brits went under is mainly due to the fact that your assertion couldn't be more wrong.

Case and point... when Triumph wheezed it's last breath.... those years of knowing what they were doing and all that experience to which you refer....

Still was nothing more than the very limit of Mr Turners 1936 design...

which wasn't near close to a world beater then.

I'll conclude by strongly suggesting you are confusing quality engineering and precision workmanship with sex appeal.

I love Brit iron and there are many in my stables. I built everyone of them. Jap bikes? Owned more than I can count.

Don't get silly over a polished rod.

It means nothing nor does it (likely you drooled over one somebody polished failing to realize that once thats done the rod should be peened/blasted back dull) even come close to explaining why the Brits horrific quality, complete lack of modern engineering or cods to start with a non50+ year old designs actually put them out of business because they simply couldn't compete with the superior asian offerings.

I can promise you I love the Brit and American iron like you probably will never be able to....


but I certainly do not cultivate any such delusions about the nature of those beasts as you certainly appear to do.
 

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No illusions here. My Bonneville has always been troublesome, because it was poorly built by apathetic workers, probably using worn out machinery & ancient technology.
And it was I who made the 10,000mi comment in the first place.

My point is... often, but not always, British machines were assembled from nicer parts than their Japanese counterparts. The chrome, paint, etc is to a higher standard (same could be said about H-D today). Case in point - stamped steel Japanese frames, with sloppy ugly welds.
What the Japanese did best was provide up to date technology & performance, at an affordable price. And they did it by cutting some corners to a much more obvious degree (and in relatively unimportant areas) than the Brits - leaving them free to spend their development money where it counted. The Japanese stuff just feels cheaper when holding it in my hands.
 

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No illusions here. My Bonneville has always been troublesome, because it was poorly built by apathetic workers, probably using worn out machinery & ancient technology.
And it was I who made the 10,000mi comment in the first place.

My point is... often, but not always, British machines were assembled from nicer parts than their Japanese counterparts. The chrome, paint, etc is to a higher standard (same could be said about H-D today). Case in point - stamped steel Japanese frames, with sloppy ugly welds.
What the Japanese did best was provide up to date technology & performance, at an affordable price. And they did it by cutting some corners to a much more obvious degree (and in relatively unimportant areas) than the Brits - leaving them free to spend their development money where it counted. The Japanese stuff just feels cheaper when holding it in my hands.
 

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funny....i agree with both of you....having owned both, and worked on both extensively. haha. though i do find the british stuff much more fulfilling to work on.
 

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funny....i agree with both of you....having owned both, and worked on both extensively. haha. though i do find the british stuff much more fulfilling to work on.
 

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You truly are confusing quality with sex

Porous die cast cases and cover of softer alloys that seep oil and do well to hold a coarse thread.... much less the retarded fine threads the more astute and learned asians never attempted

Well they polish beautifully and very easily!

Please.... the sexless OIF was the first decent frame ever built by the brits

from a technical standpoint, yet it....

just like the very sexy featherbed has blatant design errors very seldom found on the superior, but much less sexy asian frames

you are only showing your ignorance and perhaps bias....

Therefore I must take my own sage advice and stop trying to teach a pig to sing because it does waste my time while only annoying the pig! ;)
 

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You truly are confusing quality with sex

Porous die cast cases and cover of softer alloys that seep oil and do well to hold a coarse thread.... much less the retarded fine threads the more astute and learned asians never attempted

Well they polish beautifully and very easily!

Please.... the sexless OIF was the first decent frame ever built by the brits

from a technical standpoint, yet it....

just like the very sexy featherbed has blatant design errors very seldom found on the superior, but much less sexy asian frames

you are only showing your ignorance and perhaps bias....

Therefore I must take my own sage advice and stop trying to teach a pig to sing because it does waste my time while only annoying the pig! ;)
 

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I strongly recommend you read

Whatever Happened To The British Motorcycle Industry


Its a good read.

I'd also recommend getting schooled on frame design and how long Mr Honda and others had actually been building bikes....

And how easily they started with a clean sheet of paper

Showed up next year with amazing flawless exotica at the track

...5 cyl 125cc inlines

6 cyl 250cc inlines

amazing multivalve OHC engines that made the stodgy tea sipping shot callers heads swim...

and truly stop confusing sex for quality

When you think a cast lug furnace (an open wood fire actually) brazed frame is superior to those sloppy welded frames that seldom broke

well I'd recommend refraining from frame design and building if I were you
 

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I strongly recommend you read

Whatever Happened To The British Motorcycle Industry


Its a good read.

I'd also recommend getting schooled on frame design and how long Mr Honda and others had actually been building bikes....

And how easily they started with a clean sheet of paper

Showed up next year with amazing flawless exotica at the track

...5 cyl 125cc inlines

6 cyl 250cc inlines

amazing multivalve OHC engines that made the stodgy tea sipping shot callers heads swim...

and truly stop confusing sex for quality

When you think a cast lug furnace (an open wood fire actually) brazed frame is superior to those sloppy welded frames that seldom broke

well I'd recommend refraining from frame design and building if I were you
 

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HackA,
The 74 BSA T65 was a rebadged Triumph in an OIF. So technically, there was a post 73 BSA 650. I believe the teaching a pig to sing quote should be attributed to Lazarus Long (Robert A. Heinlein), but still a good quote that I use on occasion, myself. Furthermore, how can one confuse quality with sex appeal of a part? Appeal is part of the quality, it is simply another attribute of a design.

Ken
 

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HackA,
The 74 BSA T65 was a rebadged Triumph in an OIF. So technically, there was a post 73 BSA 650. I believe the teaching a pig to sing quote should be attributed to Lazarus Long (Robert A. Heinlein), but still a good quote that I use on occasion, myself. Furthermore, how can one confuse quality with sex appeal of a part? Appeal is part of the quality, it is simply another attribute of a design.

Ken
 

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Touche Ken AND Spacman....

However..... BSA was teats up due hugely to poor quality.... sex appeal couldn't compensate for an archaic bottom end design the asians had the good sense to not replicate.

So this T65, one of which I've never seen or heard run may as well been a rebadged 1974 Crocker for all practical purposes and I doubt it's quality was any better than the wheezing 1973's that rolled off the line nothing more than a sloppy kit bike for a wise builder to season, completely blueprint afterwards

and then correct all the stupidity the many years of zero engineering, stubborn willfulness to [refuse] address[ing] the end consumers application.... as well as the shoddy sloppy crap that broke with predictable reliability


well you can/could make good machines out of them

it just aint easy or cheap
 

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Touche Ken AND Spacman....

However..... BSA was teats up due hugely to poor quality.... sex appeal couldn't compensate for an archaic bottom end design the asians had the good sense to not replicate.

So this T65, one of which I've never seen or heard run may as well been a rebadged 1974 Crocker for all practical purposes and I doubt it's quality was any better than the wheezing 1973's that rolled off the line nothing more than a sloppy kit bike for a wise builder to season, completely blueprint afterwards

and then correct all the stupidity the many years of zero engineering, stubborn willfulness to [refuse] address[ing] the end consumers application.... as well as the shoddy sloppy crap that broke with predictable reliability


well you can/could make good machines out of them

it just aint easy or cheap
 

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First of all, you can't even begin to discuss motorcycles, discounting the sex appeal factor. Sex is the primary reason you bought your first motorcycle (or else you were dead already, or a liar)... you either bought it to get sex, or in lieu of getting sex...

There's a reason British motorcycle industry was once held as the world standard, that being, when they worked properly, those bikes had no peer. While the metallurgy may have been less than perfect, the machining may have been (by the mid seventies... hell, by the mid 50s) sub-standard, and the basic engineering of the engines may have been decades out of date... you can't argue with the fact that Triumphs were winning races well into the 1970s.

Read, friend... I never once said Triumph, BSA, Norton made a better machine, nor did I say they were less expensive. Look at it this way... my 4D Maglite doesn't put out better light when I'm camping, than my made in China Ray-O-vac... but it certainly feels a lot better in my hand, and when discussing something which elicits as much emotional appeal as a motorcycle, sometimes how it feels in my hand is enough (ok, yeah... spare me that bit of commentary... how it feels in my hand...


I have a naked girl in the bed upstairs... waiting).
 
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