Avon VS Dunlop
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John,
I've run both.
And let me be specific here... the AVON in the SIZES that we are likely to run in 200gp are CRAP! I've done two sets of them, first set had to go back..dried out and unbalanceable. The second set was fresher but still so out of round that I had to use about 5oz to balance it. And under the best of conditions rotate the wheel on a balance stand and watch the centerline of the tire...it's all over the place. The larger AVONs seem to have considerably better quality.
The Dunlops...in a word... ROCK! Very sticky, nice modern profile, actually round unlike the Avons, the mount nicely and have a good quality appearance. If you are into lean angles... I mean for real..all boasting aside, if you regularly drag pegs, pipes, toes, knees... you better have the Dunlops...put them side by side and look at the contact patch at high lean angles...no contest.
I run the soft (unobtanium now) compound on the front of our bikes and the med compound on the rear.
Be aware that you will have to change your gearing to compensate for the lower profile of the Dunlops.
Did I mention they were 3 lbs lighter than the Avons when used on front and rear?
JohnnyB
PS. I'm pretty sure Aaron was using the larger Avons (at least on the rear). I'm talking about 80/90 and the 90/90 Avons that are crappy.
Edited by - jbranson on Dec 09 2004 5:33:52 PM
I've run both.
And let me be specific here... the AVON in the SIZES that we are likely to run in 200gp are CRAP! I've done two sets of them, first set had to go back..dried out and unbalanceable. The second set was fresher but still so out of round that I had to use about 5oz to balance it. And under the best of conditions rotate the wheel on a balance stand and watch the centerline of the tire...it's all over the place. The larger AVONs seem to have considerably better quality.
The Dunlops...in a word... ROCK! Very sticky, nice modern profile, actually round unlike the Avons, the mount nicely and have a good quality appearance. If you are into lean angles... I mean for real..all boasting aside, if you regularly drag pegs, pipes, toes, knees... you better have the Dunlops...put them side by side and look at the contact patch at high lean angles...no contest.
I run the soft (unobtanium now) compound on the front of our bikes and the med compound on the rear.
Be aware that you will have to change your gearing to compensate for the lower profile of the Dunlops.
Did I mention they were 3 lbs lighter than the Avons when used on front and rear?
JohnnyB
PS. I'm pretty sure Aaron was using the larger Avons (at least on the rear). I'm talking about 80/90 and the 90/90 Avons that are crappy.
Edited by - jbranson on Dec 09 2004 5:33:52 PM
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my response is kind of silly after johnnyB's, he seems to know more. i did use the roadrunners on that CB350 that i rode, and i like them, especially in the rain. on hot days they would turn real soft on the back...these vintage "racers" we ride tend to be a bit ass heavy. the dunlops are almost slick when you're leaned over aren't they? dry is nice, but i bet in the wet they're not half the tire as the avon. i guess two sets of wheels might be the answer.
Z
Z
JohnnyB,
I have been running the AM18 and AM22 in the past but used to run the Road Runners. Same as the pair we put on Jeremys bike. Also the 80/90/18 avon road runner only weighs 7.5 lbs not 9lbs. I still think the Dunlops are a better tyre but I think the smaller avon could be used as an alternative to someone who isn't pushing corner speed as there primary objective for fast lap times.
Aaron
I have been running the AM18 and AM22 in the past but used to run the Road Runners. Same as the pair we put on Jeremys bike. Also the 80/90/18 avon road runner only weighs 7.5 lbs not 9lbs. I still think the Dunlops are a better tyre but I think the smaller avon could be used as an alternative to someone who isn't pushing corner speed as there primary objective for fast lap times.
Aaron
thanks for the input!!
I have had excellent results with the Avons. The only drawback I can come up with is the rear tends to get REAL choppy on the edges. With my lean angle I get right to the edge,edge-did I say edge of the profile of the tire. The rear gets scallopy and can feel greasy at times. I also run low tire pressures to squat out the profile.
JB I never experienced the issues you brought up(cracking and out of round) and I have gone thru 1/2 dozen sets 80/90-18 & 90/90-18 must be the Irish luck I have!!!
Champ
I have had excellent results with the Avons. The only drawback I can come up with is the rear tends to get REAL choppy on the edges. With my lean angle I get right to the edge,edge-did I say edge of the profile of the tire. The rear gets scallopy and can feel greasy at times. I also run low tire pressures to squat out the profile.
JB I never experienced the issues you brought up(cracking and out of round) and I have gone thru 1/2 dozen sets 80/90-18 & 90/90-18 must be the Irish luck I have!!!
Champ
im "sticking" with the dunlops. i think they feel better in the rain than the avons, but thats just me. people say the avons step out and dump you, and the dunlops give you a bit of warning before they spit you, once i get warned, i usualy go off, so i cant say for sure.
dunlops for me.
wierd that the only good vintage race tires are british huh?? i guess 'cus they cant make em leak oil.
jc
dunlops for me.
wierd that the only good vintage race tires are british huh?? i guess 'cus they cant make em leak oil.
jc
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that's exactly the experience i had john, scalloping and shredding on the edge of the rear tire. do they make the roadrunners in a harder compound?
Z
Z
From Bob Coy. Pretty Funny!!!
With the speeds of that bike and your riding style I would go for the Cheng Shin tires. Something like the C-199H.. It says RUGGED, BLACKWALL PERFORMANCE and it is rated for 130mph. At $15.95 each you can keep changing tires all day like the pro's. As a former 250 champ you have nothing to prove by winning again..just let the bike slide like REAl GP riders do. You don't need to get technical with tire pressures and let those others mess with your mind.
Champ
With the speeds of that bike and your riding style I would go for the Cheng Shin tires. Something like the C-199H.. It says RUGGED, BLACKWALL PERFORMANCE and it is rated for 130mph. At $15.95 each you can keep changing tires all day like the pro's. As a former 250 champ you have nothing to prove by winning again..just let the bike slide like REAl GP riders do. You don't need to get technical with tire pressures and let those others mess with your mind.
Champ
One of the reasons I went with the Dunlops was the way D'angelo praised them in the rain. I've run them twice in the wet and have been very happy with them...I don't have enough experience in the wet on the Avons to pass any judgement there.
I did run into the same thing with the side walls, and watched Yannerilla do the same thing to his Avons...when you are getting over that far you want the tread of the tire on the road, not the side wall.
I did have a set of soft dunlops on the back of mine for a while and was totally roasting them. After a race once, and after sitting in the pits a few moments Frank C. put the gauge on them...168 degrees..had to be hitting 180 degree during the race. Greasy that hot on the track but very predictable.
I ran 80/90 Avons in front (7.5 lbs) and 90/90 Avon in the rear ( 9 lbs) so for me going to the Dunlops at between 6.5 and 7 lbs was a nice weight savings. Like Aaron says..wouldn't be such a big deal if one was running 80/90 Avons on front and back.
John, I was getting my Avons from WERA vintage...I've heard they are not the best source, and often have old tires. I'm picky about wheels and tires, I like my rims trued to .010 - .015" and I like the tires to run very straight and true. Probably makes no difference..but there you go.. I'm anal about wheels.
I just can't get past the contact patch, I know what touches ground on my bike, I know where the tires are on their road surface at those angles, and the Dunlop has the same patch at 45 degrees as it does at 10 degrees... the Avons are off the tread surface by then.
I guess a lot of it is confidence, I have a ton of confidence in the Dunlops. I'm 207 lbs in race gear, I think I push my little bike pretty hard, and the rear tire takes a ton of abuse (like Zack says..weight on this bike is about 60/40 on the rear), not to mention most of my weight back there. I can count how many times I've exited corners to have the back end do two or three quick slip and grips that in my baised opinion probably would have been a high/low side with Avons. No I have no hard evidence to prove that.
At the level most of us ride (not Zack), confidence is probably more of an issue than actual tire performance. But if you are running off the tread then that's a visible sign you are exceeded the design parameters of the tire.
I one thing I remember back when I was running Avons. After a race a guy came over the pits and looked at my bike. He said...I was watching over in turn three, if you keep riding like that you better put some Dunlops on there...... For all I know he sold Dunlops, or was a goof ball...but he didn't seem like a goof ball.
Anyway...give the Dunlops a try. I've yet to speak to anyone that tried them that didn't like them. Check the fast guys running your sizes...see what they run. If turk is running Avons on his MT...well then I'm guessing we are all safe on Avons, if he's running Dunlops like Yannerilla, might want to give them a try.
Once again...I can't address the performance of any Dunlop/Avon tires except the 80/90 90/90 Avon Universals and the KR825 Dunlops in soft and Med.
JohnnyB
I did run into the same thing with the side walls, and watched Yannerilla do the same thing to his Avons...when you are getting over that far you want the tread of the tire on the road, not the side wall.
I did have a set of soft dunlops on the back of mine for a while and was totally roasting them. After a race once, and after sitting in the pits a few moments Frank C. put the gauge on them...168 degrees..had to be hitting 180 degree during the race. Greasy that hot on the track but very predictable.
I ran 80/90 Avons in front (7.5 lbs) and 90/90 Avon in the rear ( 9 lbs) so for me going to the Dunlops at between 6.5 and 7 lbs was a nice weight savings. Like Aaron says..wouldn't be such a big deal if one was running 80/90 Avons on front and back.
John, I was getting my Avons from WERA vintage...I've heard they are not the best source, and often have old tires. I'm picky about wheels and tires, I like my rims trued to .010 - .015" and I like the tires to run very straight and true. Probably makes no difference..but there you go.. I'm anal about wheels.
I just can't get past the contact patch, I know what touches ground on my bike, I know where the tires are on their road surface at those angles, and the Dunlop has the same patch at 45 degrees as it does at 10 degrees... the Avons are off the tread surface by then.
I guess a lot of it is confidence, I have a ton of confidence in the Dunlops. I'm 207 lbs in race gear, I think I push my little bike pretty hard, and the rear tire takes a ton of abuse (like Zack says..weight on this bike is about 60/40 on the rear), not to mention most of my weight back there. I can count how many times I've exited corners to have the back end do two or three quick slip and grips that in my baised opinion probably would have been a high/low side with Avons. No I have no hard evidence to prove that.
At the level most of us ride (not Zack), confidence is probably more of an issue than actual tire performance. But if you are running off the tread then that's a visible sign you are exceeded the design parameters of the tire.
I one thing I remember back when I was running Avons. After a race a guy came over the pits and looked at my bike. He said...I was watching over in turn three, if you keep riding like that you better put some Dunlops on there...... For all I know he sold Dunlops, or was a goof ball...but he didn't seem like a goof ball.
Anyway...give the Dunlops a try. I've yet to speak to anyone that tried them that didn't like them. Check the fast guys running your sizes...see what they run. If turk is running Avons on his MT...well then I'm guessing we are all safe on Avons, if he's running Dunlops like Yannerilla, might want to give them a try.
Once again...I can't address the performance of any Dunlop/Avon tires except the 80/90 90/90 Avon Universals and the KR825 Dunlops in soft and Med.
JohnnyB
Lol.... D'angelo is slow enough to make ChinShins work well....
Actually, my first race bike (RD200) had chenShins on them. They worked pretty well until it rained.
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/avontyre.jpg
http://www.motocarrera.com/tires.htm
If you're running the Avon Roadrunner Universal, they're crap. Well, they're not crap, but I hate that blocky tread pattern right at the edge of the tire. Very unsettling when leaned over. They stick very well, and are excellent in the rain, but I don't like they way they feel.
The AM20/AM22 combination I'm running on my RD (90front,110rear) work very well in the wet or dry. Now that my bike is putting out more power, I'm starting to run into traction issues in the rear, which is being affected by the weight bais of the bike and too stiff shock springs. This year I plan on softer springs, a slightly extended swingarm, and to give the Dunlops a try.
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i've heard lots on this arguement here in this thread and for the past couple years in many conversations amongst former teammates and competitors.
i think it comes down to confidence. i spent the past summer changing lots of modern sportbike tires, from pirelli supercorsas, dunlop gpa's, michelin pilots, b-stones too..... after numerous conversations with these dudes i conclude that it all comes down to the rider's general experience with said rubber company.
o.k., apples and oranges i agree between a modern sportbike tire and a vintage treaded compound. i've crashed before on both my derbi (avon roadrunner 90/90 16" shod) and my cb350 also avon shod. neither time did i feel my bike "step out" due to a poorly constructed tire, greasy, or just plain old and worn out. i did have a minor crash at summit in practice on a set of dunlops on my rs125, but those were old slicks, and probably not warm/hot enough (no warmers) to be trying the manuever i attempted.
back to vintage..... i never have been concerned too much with weight. let's face it, i'm a skinney bastard! at 6'1" and 137lbs (without gear), i always figured that i pretty much have a few pound advantage on the average racer. i've seen friends swear by avons and others by dunlops. i've even seen fellows run dunlop fronts and avon rears, convinced that is the set-up (that same dude has won to many races at uscra/ahrma/and wera to argue with), so be it, i still think it is a chevy -vs- ford debate.
champ, i think you should try the dunlops, and do your own experimentation. it isn't like your financing a new mortgage. i bet if you don't like them after a day or two someone on this board would gladly take them off your hands.
that is my two-cents.
tex
p.s.- r.c. barker for dunlops, vintage specialties for avons.
i think it comes down to confidence. i spent the past summer changing lots of modern sportbike tires, from pirelli supercorsas, dunlop gpa's, michelin pilots, b-stones too..... after numerous conversations with these dudes i conclude that it all comes down to the rider's general experience with said rubber company.
o.k., apples and oranges i agree between a modern sportbike tire and a vintage treaded compound. i've crashed before on both my derbi (avon roadrunner 90/90 16" shod) and my cb350 also avon shod. neither time did i feel my bike "step out" due to a poorly constructed tire, greasy, or just plain old and worn out. i did have a minor crash at summit in practice on a set of dunlops on my rs125, but those were old slicks, and probably not warm/hot enough (no warmers) to be trying the manuever i attempted.
back to vintage..... i never have been concerned too much with weight. let's face it, i'm a skinney bastard! at 6'1" and 137lbs (without gear), i always figured that i pretty much have a few pound advantage on the average racer. i've seen friends swear by avons and others by dunlops. i've even seen fellows run dunlop fronts and avon rears, convinced that is the set-up (that same dude has won to many races at uscra/ahrma/and wera to argue with), so be it, i still think it is a chevy -vs- ford debate.
champ, i think you should try the dunlops, and do your own experimentation. it isn't like your financing a new mortgage. i bet if you don't like them after a day or two someone on this board would gladly take them off your hands.
that is my two-cents.
tex
p.s.- r.c. barker for dunlops, vintage specialties for avons.
Rob,
There was a day when D'angelo wasn't so slow. He had a bad crash about eight years ago that slowed him down a lot. He's only got back up to speed the last year or so.
I mean he was never a Turk, but he was quicker than he is now. And....he's super paranoid about rain..
JohnnyB
There was a day when D'angelo wasn't so slow. He had a bad crash about eight years ago that slowed him down a lot. He's only got back up to speed the last year or so.
I mean he was never a Turk, but he was quicker than he is now. And....he's super paranoid about rain..
JohnnyB
JohnnyB,
Indeed you are correct about Steve. He and I have raced together for the past 10 years or so. We had some really good battles-I would say we're 50/50 with win/loses against each other. He has picked up the pace as of late and I had some really good-clean battles with him this past season.
Champ
Indeed you are correct about Steve. He and I have raced together for the past 10 years or so. We had some really good battles-I would say we're 50/50 with win/loses against each other. He has picked up the pace as of late and I had some really good-clean battles with him this past season.
Champ
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Steve D kept up with me in one race this year. it was raining, i was impressed. i'm glad he wasn't going faster because i didn't want to go much faster than i already was.
Z
Z
Steve has run an absolutely brutal race schedule that last couple of years...had to be making a dozen races a year at least from Mosport, to schuby to Jennings.
The guy I saw run at Gunstock last year was a new Steve, that had obviously gotten over his caution of the previous years.
Rob, crashes effect everybody differently...you don't strike me as the kind to be slowed up by a crash in a mental way...might take you a while to get back 100% physical though. Sometimes people, like Steve, who REALLY don't like to crash, and don't expect to crash, take it kind of bad when they do.
When I don't get hurt, and it doesn't cost too much, I ALMOST, don't mind a crash... it can be a very good learning experience. Course I broke three verts in my back, both wrists, cut the ball of my right foot off, got 57 stitches in my head and did enough internal damage to spend 7 weeks in the hospital from a crash on the street. So in general I'm not excessively worried about a crash on my 200gp bike...athough any freak thing can kill you. As Strempfer can probably attest to.
At my age an injury is almost a vacation...with you youngsters it probably puts a cramp in your lifestyle.
JohnnyB
PS. They had to stick a camera up my peepee and look around several times, I didn't care for that much.
The guy I saw run at Gunstock last year was a new Steve, that had obviously gotten over his caution of the previous years.
Rob, crashes effect everybody differently...you don't strike me as the kind to be slowed up by a crash in a mental way...might take you a while to get back 100% physical though. Sometimes people, like Steve, who REALLY don't like to crash, and don't expect to crash, take it kind of bad when they do.
When I don't get hurt, and it doesn't cost too much, I ALMOST, don't mind a crash... it can be a very good learning experience. Course I broke three verts in my back, both wrists, cut the ball of my right foot off, got 57 stitches in my head and did enough internal damage to spend 7 weeks in the hospital from a crash on the street. So in general I'm not excessively worried about a crash on my 200gp bike...athough any freak thing can kill you. As Strempfer can probably attest to.
At my age an injury is almost a vacation...with you youngsters it probably puts a cramp in your lifestyle.
JohnnyB
PS. They had to stick a camera up my peepee and look around several times, I didn't care for that much.
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