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Cutlass RGs are also an undervalued model right now. Most people who want a 172 don't want the higher maintenance costs and complexity of a constant-speed prop and retractable gear. Most people who have "complex aircraft" experience want something larger and faster than a 172. A stone-reliable, high-wing four-seater that cruises at 140 knots is something I personally would love to own.

Although, if we're talking aircraft in general, my dream plane is a Taylor Mini-Imp, “The nearest thing there is to a witch’s broomstick.”

http://atomictoasters.com/2010/12/the-taylor-mini-imp/

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I love the idea of a Retractable gear cessna in theory, but if I recall correctly the failure rate on the gear system in these planes was horrendous. As a kid I have seen more than one gear up landing of one where the rear main gears would not rotate around and just hung out there in the breeze like airplane testicles. They weren't all 172/182 RGs though, some were 210 centurions.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
What is going on with 177 cardinal values?
I did some work on one and thought it was a very cool plane.
Don't remember them being much money.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Defiantly!
 

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I keep telling you, you could build an entire VW powered Sonerai for the cost of a Formula 1 airplane engine.

That plane hasn't flown since 1991. You'd have to replace literally everything. that $4K price tag? yeah you are paying for history and garage/hangar art at that point.

Also, you should be looking at the trade-a-plane if you are looking for aircraft.

Honestly get a license. Apparently Mooney prices have gutted since they stopped making aircraft so you can get 1960's mooney's for mid $30K. That's a bargain.
Case in point:
1963 Mooney M20C Aircraft for sale - Jason Nelson , - Trade-A-Plane Inventory ID 2068579
1968 Mooney M20C Aircraft for sale - Las Vegas Aircraft Sales Lancaster, CA - Trade-A-Plane Inventory ID 2053320
 

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Nice! Looks like a super cub.

My father had tundra tires and cleveland brakes on his cessna 140. Used to tell me stories about landing on frozen lakes and coral reefs and all sorts of off airport places. Ah the 70's, when you could still get away with flying without a radio.
 

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I still wish for a 337.

210 gear isn't that bad. You just gotta do the updates on the nose wheel and keep on top of maintenance on it. The early 210 gear was sort of a rube goldberg thing, but if you give it love it won't let you down.
 

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If I had the money, I'd rather get into soaring than flying power planes. There's such a wide variety of gliders out there and I don't think there's anything better than soaring with the birds on a good clear day in an old open cockpit trainer. Here's one of my favorite soaring videos, sans the music.

 

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"when you could still get away with flying without a radio" Geeto

Man, I am so imprinted with that time of flying w/o radios & flying where you wanted for fun.
For some reason, lately I've been remembering a night spent on Alkali Lake in SE Oregon, camped under then wing of my dads C120. Fat tires & Lyc O-235 mod. Big tires made up for the lack of flaps.:p
Being as I was 7-8 yrs old, I was somewhat concerned about rattlesnakes getting in my boots overnight.
I believe we were headed to SLC from the Williamette Valley. Bumpy ride all the way once you got into the desert. Best to throttle back & float up a few thermals here n there.

NE
 

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We used to take the canopy off the glider and take it up and invert it and just push out of the seat to sky dive out of it. We had world class thermals coming over the Tehachapi mountains where I taught skydiving at Calif. City,Ca. and some of the best gliding in the world. I worked crew for guy who took a Cessna 150, flew it to 2500'agl, shut the engine off and then rode a thermal too 25K' setting a world record. I jumped out just about every plane made, balloons, helicopters, and even the Goodyear Blimp. Those bring back some memories. I still want to try hang gliding.
 

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I'm still grinning!

Three weeks ago I was given an opportunity to ride in a freshly built TA-4J. The airplane was rebuilt at great expense over a decade or so by some of the best mechanics I have been around. Just a magnificent effort. A test-pilot had been hired by the owner to give it initial flights, and before Christmas he gave it its first lift-off in some 30 years. I was invited to fly with him on test flights numbers 2, 3 and 4, with a task of ensuring the back-seat instruments and mechanisms were working in concert with the pilot's. Mechanically the bird was flawless, but we did pick up some small issues (instrumentation, mainly) that will require attention before its final test flight. From there it will go to a paint shop and will emerge as one of the finest examples of restored Vietnam-era warbirds.

The test pilot is a 747 cargo pilot now, but he also works air shows and instructs for an A-4 outifit in Florida. And he was on active duty in the last A-4 outfit in the Navy, operating out of Puerto Rico not many years back. I've flown with many very accomplished pilots, but he is among the best. Very talented guy with current experience.

Attached is a photo of me in flight gear before one of the flights and a second photo -- a selfie -- of me in the rear cockpit with the Tetons in the background. You can't see the huge smile behind the O2 mask, but I assure you it was there. As part of the testing we did some overhead work, and I was thrilled to find I can -- at 72 -- still tolerate Gs. We pulled five Gs on loop entries and a sustained five in the break (which is the way Navy aircraft enter a landing pattern from speed). No blackouts, no air-sickness, just constant smiles and glee!

I was allowed on the controls a few times, but I disappointed myself finding how far my skills have degraded since my last A-4 flight on August 7, 1969. I did manage an acceptable loop -- not a good one, certainly not one suitable for an air show, but ... well ... acceptable.

My takeaway: Life is good, very good indeed, when in the air. And it is superlative when in a high-performance jet.

Larry compressed.jpg Selfie compressed (1).jpg
 

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WingWalker, please explain the "break". Meaning a mid G turn to enter the downwind leg of approach? What purpose does that serve?
And, yer a lucky guy.

NE
 

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WingWalker, please explain the "break". Meaning a mid G turn to enter the downwind leg of approach? What purpose does that serve?
And, yer a lucky guy.

I can tell you how it was back in the day -- that is 1969 and earlier. I think it is pretty much the same today.

When Navy aircraft came back to the ship for landing, they'd fly alongside the ship just off the starboard side at pattern altitude. Then when abeam the bow, they'd reduce power and at the same time break into a left turn. In practice sessions, while getting ready to deploy, this would be a low-G standard-rate turn. But as the airwing got more experience, the pilots would come in hotter, which then required a higher-G turn to arrive downwind at the proper distance from the ship. If arriving as a flight of two, the lead breaks at the bow and the wingie counts down five seconds and breaks. Interestingly, this generated a 30-second spacing between the two when downwind. And if it was a division -- that is, a flight of four -- each would count down five seconds from when the previous guy (or nowadays, guy or gal) went. In day operations, landings were spaced 30-seconds apart (and when I was flying, at night it was one minute). You can visualize how important the close timing was when you understand that on our carrier we might have 35 airplanes on a strike all coming back at the same time. To take care of this timing, each pilot (or flight of two or four) would be assigned a "Charlie Time," that is, the precise minute that each airplane was to arrive at the stern of the ship for its landing. This would mean that between the first and last of a 35-aircraft raid would be 17.5 minutes. If folks got strung out and missed their Charlie, it would of course increase the carrier's recovery time, and that would mean the ship would have to steam into the wind longer. And if the wind was coming from shore, that would mean that the boat would be headed toward rocks, which would greatly irritate the captain. And remember it flows down hill, so stand by if you mess that up.

While in the high-G turn with power back and speed-brakes popped out, you'd be bleeding off airspeed like crazy -- and that's what you wanted. If you had raced to the ship at, say, 450 kts. (which is about 520 mph), you needed to be down below 210 kts to drop gear and flaps. And you needed that to happen about the time you finished that 180-degree turn. With gear and flaps down, you still needed to slow to landing speed, which was about 125 kts, and then get stabilized with power back on.

And to look cool -- which is what a hot break was all about -- you needed to break right at the bow of the ship. Once downwind, you were expected to begin your approach-turn as you came abeam the stern of the ship. So in reality, it was just a 360-degree circle you were making, while decelerating and doing all your final cockpit checks and getting into a very stable airspeed for the landing. Landing speed was plus-or-minus 3 knots or less. And the landing-signal-officer (LSO) who controlled every landing via radio from a platform at the back of the ship could tell your airspeed within that range by the attitude of your aircraft. He'd call you and tell you you were fast if you were, and he'd call for power (which was an order that had to be obeyed) if you were slow. "Power!" One word.

Arrive at the back of the ship fast, and he would wave you off. Get much slower and you'd stall -- since carrier landings were made on the backside of the power curve (meaning at a speed less than power-off stall speed). There was literally no margin. Took a hell of a lot of practice along with some real skill. Today, computers control the speed and other factors for modern carrier airplanes. Because the approach was flown on the backside of the power curve, speed was controlled with the stick (lower the nose to increase speed, raise it to decrease) and power controlled the angle of the glide-slope. And the glide-slope was 3 degrees.

If you are a pilot, part of your training was learning to flare -- that is, smooth out the approach angle as you land to make for a smooth touch-down. But a carrier landing is flown down that glide-slope right onto the deck. Blamo, you hit hard. Tires would never lose their tread but would be beat to hell and needed replacement in just a handful of landings. As you hit the deck, speedbrakes came in and full power was added. If you caught a wire, good. But if you didn't (bolter it was called) the power would be coming on in time to make a go-around. Bolters were an embarrassment. As the months at sea went on, the airwing got better and better until a bolter was a rarity.

Night landings were a whole 'nuther deal, and scary as hell. They also relied on very precise flying, but there was no break involved; it was an instrument approach.

I remember all this clearly because I was in training as an LSO (but never qualified because I got shot down early in the deployment).
 

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Wow, 3kt margin, that's crazy. A fantastic explanation, sir.
That's why I love CR.net.

NE
 

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WingWalker, please explain the "break". Meaning a mid G turn to enter the downwind leg of approach? What purpose does that serve?
And, yer a lucky guy.

I can tell you how it was back in the day -- that is 1969 and earlier. I think it is pretty much the same today.

When Navy aircraft came back to the ship for landing, they'd fly alongside the ship just off the starboard side at pattern altitude. Then when abeam the bow, they'd reduce power and at the same time break into a left turn. In practice sessions, while getting ready to deploy, this would be a low-G standard-rate turn. But as the airwing got more experience, the pilots would come in hotter, which then required a higher-G turn to arrive downwind at the proper distance from the ship. If arriving as a flight of two, the lead breaks at the bow and the wingie counts down five seconds and breaks. Interestingly, this generated a 30-second spacing between the two when downwind. And if it was a division -- that is, a flight of four -- each would count down five seconds from when the previous guy (or nowadays, guy or gal) went. In day operations, landings were spaced 30-seconds apart (and when I was flying, at night it was one minute). You can visualize how important the close timing was when you understand that on our carrier we might have 35 airplanes on a strike all coming back at the same time. To take care of this timing, each pilot (or flight of two or four) would be assigned a "Charlie Time," that is, the precise minute that each airplane was to arrive at the stern of the ship for its landing. This would mean that between the first and last of a 35-aircraft raid would be 17.5 minutes. If folks got strung out and missed their Charlie, it would of course increase the carrier's recovery time, and that would mean the ship would have to steam into the wind longer. And if the wind was coming from shore, that would mean that the boat would be headed toward rocks, which would greatly irritate the captain. And remember it flows down hill, so stand by if you mess that up.

While in the high-G turn with power back and speed-brakes popped out, you'd be bleeding off airspeed like crazy -- and that's what you wanted. If you had raced to the ship at, say, 450 kts. (which is about 520 mph), you needed to be down below 210 kts to drop gear and flaps. And you needed that to happen about the time you finished that 180-degree turn. With gear and flaps down, you still needed to slow to landing speed, which was about 125 kts, and then get stabilized with power back on.

And to look cool -- which is what a hot break was all about -- you needed to break right at the bow of the ship. Once downwind, you were expected to begin your approach-turn as you came abeam the stern of the ship. So in reality, it was just a 360-degree circle you were making, while decelerating and doing all your final cockpit checks and getting into a very stable airspeed for the landing. Landing speed was plus-or-minus 3 knots or less. And the landing-signal-officer (LSO) who controlled every landing via radio from a platform at the back of the ship could tell your airspeed within that range by the attitude of your aircraft. He'd call you and tell you you were fast if you were, and he'd call for power (which was an order that had to be obeyed) if you were slow. "Power!" One word.

Arrive at the back of the ship fast, and he would wave you off. Get much slower and you'd stall -- since carrier landings were made on the backside of the power curve (meaning at a speed less than power-off stall speed). There was literally no margin. Took a hell of a lot of practice along with some real skill. Today, computers control the speed and other factors for modern carrier airplanes. Because the approach was flown on the backside of the power curve, speed was controlled with the stick (lower the nose to increase speed, raise it to decrease) and power controlled the angle of the glide-slope. And the glide-slope was 3 degrees.

If you are a pilot, part of your training was learning to flare -- that is, smooth out the approach angle as you land to make for a smooth touch-down. But a carrier landing is flown down that glide-slope right onto the deck. Blamo, you hit hard. Tires would never lose their tread but would be beat to hell and needed replacement in just a handful of landings. As you hit the deck, speedbrakes came in and full power was added. If you caught a wire, good. But if you didn't (bolter it was called) the power would be coming on in time to make a go-around. Bolters were an embarrassment. As the months at sea went on, the airwing got better and better until a bolter was a rarity.

Night landings were a whole 'nuther deal, and scary as hell. They also relied on very precise flying, but there was no break involved; it was an instrument approach.

I remember all this clearly because I was in training as an LSO (but never qualified because I got shot down early in the deployment).
It's no wonder you guys swagger when you walk. You must have balls the size of melons. So how is your memory of punching out? Crystal clear I would imagine.
 
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