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The ideal of dual clutch technology is "seamless" gear shifting both up and down shift. This is the ultImate goal of this technology.

The advantages in racing is unquestioned, really. Look at motogp and the all the top teams use some sort of seamless gearbox. The benefits in motorcycles are not only faster upand down shifts but avoiding the momentary rocking of the bike on the suspension with conventional gearchanges.
Granted this is probably something a rider on the road would rarely experience.

The technology is also in all the top tier road cars and I disagree that the main impetus is purely attracting additional customers that can't drive stick. Porsche developed their PDK system originally in group c racing in 1983 and is now in their GT3 RS road car.
Formula 1 would have had dual clutches if allowed by regulations, but instead have seamless transmission with only a single clutch. The workings of which are still very secretive even though they've been around for years now.

The main problem i see with developing it for motorcycles is refinement, it has to be perfect. A transmission failure in a car is annoying and expensive. A transmission failure on a motorcycle is catastrophic and deadly.
 

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Discussion Starter #62
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The technology is also in all the top tier road cars and I disagree that the main impetus is purely attracting additional customers that can't drive stick. Porsche developed their PDK system originally in group c racing in 1983 and is now in their GT3 RS road car.
Porsche is the perfect example of a DCT, or DSG, or PDK being to increase market share and accessibility. Porsche's market research has always shown they were giving up sales by being a manual only car going all the way back to the 1960's. So much so that they developed those sportmatic transmissions in 1967. the problem was porsche's legacy as a pure sports car, so they couldn't just slap any old torque converter auto in it - until 1989 and the 964 where they developed...drum roll please....the tiptronic torque converter automatic. Let's face it Porsche has always tried to solve the stigma of automatics being slow through really advanced technolgy, and they HAVE ALWAYS has an impetus to do so in their cars because they were just not selling enough units. The market case speaks for itself.
 

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Porsche is the perfect example of a DCT, or DSG, or PDK being to increase market share and accessibility. Porsche's market research has always shown they were giving up sales by being a manual only car going all the way back to the 1960's. So much so that they developed those sportmatic transmissions in 1967. the problem was porsche's legacy as a pure sports car, so they couldn't just slap any old torque converter auto in it - until 1989 and the 964 where they developed...drum roll please....the tiptronic torque converter automatic. Let's face it Porsche has always tried to solve the stigma of automatics being slow through really advanced technolgy, and they HAVE ALWAYS has an impetus to do so in their cars because they were just not selling enough units. The market case speaks for itself.
Might make sense but the sales numbers for Porsche do not bear that out.

1989/1990 was when the triptronic was introduced in the 964. Sales went from 15K in 1988 to 9K in 1989 and 1990. And continued to drop to a dismal 3000 units in 1993. If it was purely to attract new buyers, it failed.

But Porsche and German companies in general are funny that way. They will continue to develop products either based on tradition or based on their vision.

Finally, sales picked up in 1997 and continued to rise and they are selling record number of cars in the US and canada these days.
 

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I think it's very important to stick with motorcycle reality for the purpose of this discussion. Car people are inherently lazy, that's why they need 4 wheels, they can't be bothered to balance.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
Might make sense but the sales numbers for Porsche do not bear that out.

1989/1990 was when the triptronic was introduced in the 964. Sales went from 15K in 1988 to 9K in 1989 and 1990. And continued to drop to a dismal 3000 units in 1993. If it was purely to attract new buyers, it failed.

But Porsche and German companies in general are funny that way. They will continue to develop products either based on tradition or based on their vision.

Finally, sales picked up in 1997 and continued to rise and they are selling record number of cars in the US and canada these days.
you also have to consider the other factors. By the time the 964 came out the 911 was already in a decline. It could be possible that they would have sold even less due to a bad recession and already declining sales. With the 1997 996 the car became overall more accessible because it went from a largely hand built car to a mass produced car at a much lower price. That was also the generation where tiptronic automatics overtook manual trans car sales - not PDKs, but good old slush box torque converter autos.
 

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911 is more of a "sports car" then a top tier supercar. Has been for a while.

The C4 and the buyer are not looking for extreme performance, hence the desire for an Auto (NOT a DSG)
The tarted up 911 like the GT3 are supposed to be pure performance, and the reason the latest gen is PDK only.

Miata DSG doesn't make sense but a GT3 does.
 

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If somebody gave me a porsche, and it didn't have a proper manual transmission with a clutch pedal, I would try like hell to trade it for one that did, even if it meant it was a little slower. It's just what I like.
 

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Discussion Starter #68
911 is more of a "sports car" then a top tier supercar. Has been for a while.
you could say the same about any bottom rung ferrari. you'd be wrong but you could say it.

The C4 and the buyer are not looking for extreme performance, hence the desire for an Auto (NOT a DSG)
The tarted up 911 like the GT3 are supposed to be pure performance, and the reason the latest gen is PDK only.

Miata DSG doesn't make sense but a GT3 does.
again its application not price point. A racing miata the DSG makes sense, a GT3 whose sole existence is to go up and down PCH once a week - makes less sense.
 

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you could say the same about any bottom rung ferrari. you'd be wrong but you could say it.



again its application not price point. A racing miata the DSG makes sense, a GT3 whose sole existence is to go up and down PCH once a week - makes less sense.
A 911 is just a GT car. Bottom rung Ferrari is defiantly not.

A racing Miata with a DSG would not make sense, that is the point!
GT3 might be bought by dickhead, but the purpose is not to catter to hem.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
A 911 is just a GT car. Bottom rung Ferrari is defiantly not.
your checkbook would disagree.

A racing Miata with a DSG would not make sense, that is the point!
To you because you don't race miatas. Was actually having the conversation a couple of weeks ago with a SCCA miata racer as to whether he could justify the cost of a sequential trans in his miata. He had a need, just couldn't justify the expense. And yes, someone makes a sequential racing trans for a miata.

GT3 might be bought by dickhead, but the purpose is not to catter to hem.
um...that is pretty much the majority of people Porsche caters to, not every orthodontist is a purist sports car enthusiast.
 

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you could say the same about any bottom rung ferrari. you'd be wrong but you could say it.



again its application not price point. A racing miata the DSG makes sense, a GT3 whose sole existence is to go up and down PCH once a week - makes less sense.
The sole existence of the GT3 is to go up the PCH to the racetrack and race in the Porsche Cup, Porsche did not design it for the street.
 

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A 458 is in no way a GT car or close to the same class as a 911 C4
The GT3 is engineered as a "race car for the road"

Fuck marketing and who buys the shit.

Are we supposed to think Jeep and Range Rover are designing hard core off road products with eyes of how they will look at the mall?
 
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