Putting their GP bike on the street. 200+hp
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Jun/tb/060601k.htm
JohnnyB
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Jun/tb/060601k.htm
JohnnyB
Ducati is actually going to do it.
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Phew! That's really something. Say what you will, it looks like it means business. If the magazines complain about the mirrors not working I'm gonna throw something.
Z
Z
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I'm sure you'll see all the Hollywood bike fans picking one up. Besides if you could afford the 999R it's probably not really a money issue.
Man, I need some dispoable cash.
Man, I need some dispoable cash.
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They have to make a lot of them for it to be considered "production" don't they? Like a few hundred a year? Also, production parts are illegal in MotoGP, so they don't want to associate the D16 street bike with the race model from a technical standpoint. I'm pretty sure I read that they're not going to use it in SBK championships.
Z
I'm not sure what the required homologation numbers are in WSBK these days...I'm thinking 400 units a year would qualify...considering Patronos managed to go racing with no production bikes that I ever heard of actually for sale. And Bimota managed to get on the track with very dubious bike numbers. I forget what the exact wording is but the production requirements have a certain variability based on the manufacturers size and history of bike production.
Ducati can now market their GP bike as production because next year the rules require 800cc bikes...so in effect the current GP engine will no longer have to meet "prototype" designation. I'm guessing there are a lot of gray areas when it comes to part numbers...very small changes could make the difference between production and prototype parts.
It's a beautiful move on Ducati's part, very much like the Ferrari marketing model. If Honda can build POS $20,000 limited production cruisers I'm thinking they could put out a GP replica too. But they are known for their conservative ways when it comes to production machines.
JohnnyB
Ducati can now market their GP bike as production because next year the rules require 800cc bikes...so in effect the current GP engine will no longer have to meet "prototype" designation. I'm guessing there are a lot of gray areas when it comes to part numbers...very small changes could make the difference between production and prototype parts.
It's a beautiful move on Ducati's part, very much like the Ferrari marketing model. If Honda can build POS $20,000 limited production cruisers I'm thinking they could put out a GP replica too. But they are known for their conservative ways when it comes to production machines.
JohnnyB
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I think Honda has learned its lessons about people getting excited about prospective machines and then cooling off when the machine actually reached the market. Ducati, however, will sell all of its production, this having to do with Ducati being Italian, as is Ferarri, thus the perception of exclusivity, sexy'ness, passion, and all the other stuff that's known Italian.
Whereas, the Japanese are known for cheap utilty type machines despite the fabulous GP, Gran Prix, etc, etc, machinery they turn out on a regular basis. If people were computers that simply analyzed data, the Japanese would be most highly esteemed; however, man has a soul, passion, sex drive, lust, ego, big list, and all of that drives him to the blood red, pulsating, wasp waisted, soulful sounding Italian machinery. Just the way it is.
Are these going to be street machines? Wow.
Dgy
Whereas, the Japanese are known for cheap utilty type machines despite the fabulous GP, Gran Prix, etc, etc, machinery they turn out on a regular basis. If people were computers that simply analyzed data, the Japanese would be most highly esteemed; however, man has a soul, passion, sex drive, lust, ego, big list, and all of that drives him to the blood red, pulsating, wasp waisted, soulful sounding Italian machinery. Just the way it is.
Are these going to be street machines? Wow.
Dgy
Sounds like racist mumbo jumbo.
I'd rather have a Honda GP replica than a Ducati. And I appreciate the Japanese culture more than that of the Italians. I think men confident in their sexuality are more easily able to pry themselves from the old school faux machismo of the Mediterranean cultures. Whereas men of dubious sexual performance are more likely to try to surround themselves with material symbols of "performance" to compensate for their lack of real world social ability.
I will grant the Italians much credit for realizing long ago that they could market their products to the sexually...uhhh...challenged..men as a material symbol they could use to substitute their lack of performance with the performance of the machine. A clever insight into the average Italian man.
Some people buy into the Ducati concept....I don't. It's just another machine....easily the most beautiful machines. But from a performance standpoint...just a below average machine. Kinda like the young and beautiful Italian girl....the looks mean everything for a little while....until the mustache starts to grow.
JohnnyB
I'd rather have a Honda GP replica than a Ducati. And I appreciate the Japanese culture more than that of the Italians. I think men confident in their sexuality are more easily able to pry themselves from the old school faux machismo of the Mediterranean cultures. Whereas men of dubious sexual performance are more likely to try to surround themselves with material symbols of "performance" to compensate for their lack of real world social ability.
I will grant the Italians much credit for realizing long ago that they could market their products to the sexually...uhhh...challenged..men as a material symbol they could use to substitute their lack of performance with the performance of the machine. A clever insight into the average Italian man.
Some people buy into the Ducati concept....I don't. It's just another machine....easily the most beautiful machines. But from a performance standpoint...just a below average machine. Kinda like the young and beautiful Italian girl....the looks mean everything for a little while....until the mustache starts to grow.
JohnnyB
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Is that why Japanese condums only come in Large, XL, and XXL, which anywhere's else would be a bag of party balloons?
See, I think the opposite is true of your sexually phobic outlook. The different cultures produce machines according to their paradigm of life. The Japanese build committee bikes, data is analyzed, votes are taken, and a machine is manufactured. It's like watching ants; quiet, disciplined, utilitarian, <yawn>, no fun but effective.
The Italians culture is quite different, as they are alive in every sense of the word; you give them rice, they give you Rice-a-Roni <ding,ding>. Every aspect of their lives is fully lived, from their clothes, to their food, to their machines, to their sexuality. The women there are FINE, a 2 in Italy is an 11 in Japan, and sexiness is a part of the way of life in Italy. When the Italians build a machine it's not so much designed as it is born, and like a child it is grown and refined over the years until like the 916, it comes to fruition and dominates the sport.
The Ducati MotoGP bike is only a few years old, and while the Japanese rip up and throw away their <mutant> designs on a regular basis, the Ducati is being refined and preened until the day when MotoGP becomes a sea of red as happened for so many years in WSB.
Hey JB, you identify with the Japanese, good for you. Now go buy a bag of balloons, the XXL ones, and have a big night; good for you. But don't automatically go dissing' anybody that loves the hot and sexy of this world just because you're intimidated by it.......hee, hee.
Love,
Dgy
See, I think the opposite is true of your sexually phobic outlook. The different cultures produce machines according to their paradigm of life. The Japanese build committee bikes, data is analyzed, votes are taken, and a machine is manufactured. It's like watching ants; quiet, disciplined, utilitarian, <yawn>, no fun but effective.
The Italians culture is quite different, as they are alive in every sense of the word; you give them rice, they give you Rice-a-Roni <ding,ding>. Every aspect of their lives is fully lived, from their clothes, to their food, to their machines, to their sexuality. The women there are FINE, a 2 in Italy is an 11 in Japan, and sexiness is a part of the way of life in Italy. When the Italians build a machine it's not so much designed as it is born, and like a child it is grown and refined over the years until like the 916, it comes to fruition and dominates the sport.
The Ducati MotoGP bike is only a few years old, and while the Japanese rip up and throw away their <mutant> designs on a regular basis, the Ducati is being refined and preened until the day when MotoGP becomes a sea of red as happened for so many years in WSB.
Hey JB, you identify with the Japanese, good for you. Now go buy a bag of balloons, the XXL ones, and have a big night; good for you. But don't automatically go dissing' anybody that loves the hot and sexy of this world just because you're intimidated by it.......hee, hee.
Love,
Dgy
Now see....if you really knew native Italians...most women who've "had" them will tell you, they are all image and no product. Notoriously bad in the sack....they try to make up for it with their vehicles.
It's ok that you've bought into their hype, lots of people have. You know...just like the HD "thing", IPODs, yuppie beer etc etc.
If you actually study product psychology you will learn that a cultures do not market products that reflect their strong points, they invariably market products that they feel compensate for their weak points. Germans-precision...to make up for the perception for many decades that they were bumbling, druken guys in lederhosen. Japanese embrace rigid organization and efficiency to compensate for being a warlike and backwards country until the 1950's, Italians market very pretty, "sexy" vehicles to make up for their lack of sexual self-confidence...which comes from the notoriously hard to satisfy Italian woman, and from their lost glory as a world power.
I won't argue penis size....you obviously have collected more data in that area than I have. But, yes it does create some sympathy in my heart when I happen to see a snippet of far east porn....but then being small in a small world is not great disadvantage. Not nearly as bad as Italians being normal and THINKING they are small.
Yes MotoGP may be dominated by Ducati....when they change the rules to favor them...like they did in WSB. And...if I'm not mistaken the RC211V is actually an older design than the Ducati or at least the same age.
Yes...there is a sea of RED...seen every night on Italian men’s faces as once again they finish the "race" WAY before their women do.
And....an Italian "2" is indistinguishable from BigFoot
I only said nice things about Ducati in this thread....until you dissed Honda...in your own subtle, sneaky way.....but no, it didn't get past my highly perceptive intellect.
I will be responding in Klingon from now on....so do your homework.
JohnnyB
It's ok that you've bought into their hype, lots of people have. You know...just like the HD "thing", IPODs, yuppie beer etc etc.
If you actually study product psychology you will learn that a cultures do not market products that reflect their strong points, they invariably market products that they feel compensate for their weak points. Germans-precision...to make up for the perception for many decades that they were bumbling, druken guys in lederhosen. Japanese embrace rigid organization and efficiency to compensate for being a warlike and backwards country until the 1950's, Italians market very pretty, "sexy" vehicles to make up for their lack of sexual self-confidence...which comes from the notoriously hard to satisfy Italian woman, and from their lost glory as a world power.
I won't argue penis size....you obviously have collected more data in that area than I have. But, yes it does create some sympathy in my heart when I happen to see a snippet of far east porn....but then being small in a small world is not great disadvantage. Not nearly as bad as Italians being normal and THINKING they are small.
Yes MotoGP may be dominated by Ducati....when they change the rules to favor them...like they did in WSB. And...if I'm not mistaken the RC211V is actually an older design than the Ducati or at least the same age.
Yes...there is a sea of RED...seen every night on Italian men’s faces as once again they finish the "race" WAY before their women do.
And....an Italian "2" is indistinguishable from BigFoot
I only said nice things about Ducati in this thread....until you dissed Honda...in your own subtle, sneaky way.....but no, it didn't get past my highly perceptive intellect.
I will be responding in Klingon from now on....so do your homework.
JohnnyB
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501 Posts
Knob me <which is Klingon for..you know>
Dgy
Dgy
The modern italian bikes I've ridden have been quite nice. They're made interesting by their flaws. Modern japanse bikes are almost boring they're so good.
I have a friend that's almost regretting buying a 748. He loves the bike, and rides it as much as he can. But BCM charges an arm and a leg to service it since they have to remove the heads to adjust the valves properly. I think that says it all.
I have a friend that's almost regretting buying a 748. He loves the bike, and rides it as much as he can. But BCM charges an arm and a leg to service it since they have to remove the heads to adjust the valves properly. I think that says it all.
I really like the two moden Ducs I've owned..but had to ditch them both because of problems, lack of parts, driving two hours to get them serviced by guys that couldn't adjust a freakin chain.
The fit and finish was superior to my modern Hondas. They sounded better...and at times they were more fun to ride. Mostly because they would get a bit out of shape in 80mph corners, hard hard braking, carry the front wheel a while out of corners. The RC51....if it gets out of shape you better start praying...cause you will be going very very fast, and you've done some very wrong. It doesn't start grooving until 90-100mph...and if you find a flaw...it's going to be at about 130+ at the least. So in that sense...it's not as fun to ride as the Ducs were. BUT...when you feel like getting on a scalpel that sacrafices everything for performance...Japanese bikes are cool.
And of course...like I've said many time. Ducs as a group are the best looking bikes made on the planet. The dry clutch is way cool too.
JohnnyB
The fit and finish was superior to my modern Hondas. They sounded better...and at times they were more fun to ride. Mostly because they would get a bit out of shape in 80mph corners, hard hard braking, carry the front wheel a while out of corners. The RC51....if it gets out of shape you better start praying...cause you will be going very very fast, and you've done some very wrong. It doesn't start grooving until 90-100mph...and if you find a flaw...it's going to be at about 130+ at the least. So in that sense...it's not as fun to ride as the Ducs were. BUT...when you feel like getting on a scalpel that sacrafices everything for performance...Japanese bikes are cool.
And of course...like I've said many time. Ducs as a group are the best looking bikes made on the planet. The dry clutch is way cool too.
JohnnyB
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501 Posts
I've had 3 Ducati's, a 95' 944 Monster with 42mm pumpers and a lightened flywheel, D&D cans (really was a monster), a 916 piped and chipped, and an ST4. I never had them even begin to indicate any kind of bad handling. In fact, my current "new" bike is a 97' Bimota Mantra which has the 2 valve Ducati engine w/39mm pumpers and a lightened flywheel and weighs 370 dry. That's a great little bike but I don't like the cast aluminum frame as much as I liked the Ducati's tube frame. Tube frames have a bit more give when you're laid over in a corner and it gets bumpy. I've had the Bimota step out a little on me, but the Ducati's never did, and I rode them a LOT harder than I ride this bike because when I had them I was at a place in my life where I threw all my cares to the wind. I am a bit more conservative these days, got some people counting on me.
As far as service goes, yeah that can be a problem. But here's the thing with Ducati's, you don't have to take them to redline everytime on the street, they've got torque. You can easily go 10k or more without having the valves set.
Motorcycle shops aren't the same anymore, though. Used to be the mechanics grew old with the dealership, but now it's all a bunch of young kids that come and go. I've got a buddy that was a mechanic for top shops, so I take him the bike when it needs adjustment and he does an excellent job for me. Shimming valves is just something I don't care to get into.
Most Ducs', though, don't accumulate high miles as they're really playbikes, Sunday AM specials. That 916 just began to get comfortable at 90, and boy was it ever easy to go fast on it. It was like the bike disappeared under you and it was just you and the road. Had an awesome sound, too; all Ducati's do.
I have a couple of friends that have RC51's, and they really like them. However, one is selling his to get an Aprilia, but then he's not an alien, either.
How's the resale on the Honda's? Considering they only cost $995 new, they must be holding their value, no?
Dgy
As far as service goes, yeah that can be a problem. But here's the thing with Ducati's, you don't have to take them to redline everytime on the street, they've got torque. You can easily go 10k or more without having the valves set.
Motorcycle shops aren't the same anymore, though. Used to be the mechanics grew old with the dealership, but now it's all a bunch of young kids that come and go. I've got a buddy that was a mechanic for top shops, so I take him the bike when it needs adjustment and he does an excellent job for me. Shimming valves is just something I don't care to get into.
Most Ducs', though, don't accumulate high miles as they're really playbikes, Sunday AM specials. That 916 just began to get comfortable at 90, and boy was it ever easy to go fast on it. It was like the bike disappeared under you and it was just you and the road. Had an awesome sound, too; all Ducati's do.
I have a couple of friends that have RC51's, and they really like them. However, one is selling his to get an Aprilia, but then he's not an alien, either.
How's the resale on the Honda's? Considering they only cost $995 new, they must be holding their value, no?
Dgy
I paid 10k for my RC51 in 2000, could probably get about 6k for it now. About the same as run of the mill Ducs. You can get 2000 996's all day long for $9k....that cost 16k new. So depreciation is about the same.
Funny thing about the Duc's I've owned...they never actually handled badly at all...but they'd do "things"....wag the rear end under hard braking into corners, tad of wallow under hard accleration out of corners. Things I accepted as part of hard riding for years..and even fun sometimes....but then you get on a modern Japanese bike and they do nothing strange, absolutely precise....until they spit you off.
To be honest...if I had to pick one style or the other...I'd probably go with the Duc feel....at least they'd give you a bit of warning prior to disaster. What's was fun about the Duc is it made you feel like a hero at 90mph because it "felt" like you were doing something. Japanese bikes just simply do exactly what you tell them to do...they keep doing it and doing it until you reach your limit, then they throw you down with no mercy.
Being in this house for 16 years now, there is a series of corners that lead down the mountain I've ridden easily 5-600 times on various bikes. In one hard, down hill left braking from about 100 to 50 the Ducs would always wag the back end, nothing bad...even felt cool. On the RC in the same corner it just takes it in stride. On the same corner going the other way the Ducs would always lift the front and carry it 15 ft or so (right hand uphill), always tracked beautifully even on just the back wheel, felt very cool. The RC just rockets around and up the hill.
So...in the long run...who knows, the Ducs felt a bit more fun to ride....more rider participation. The RC felt more like a weapon. RC is probably more suited to track situations...but then that can also just be differences in suspension setup. The RC's have very stiff suspension...too stiff...most recommended mods are geared towards softer more responsive/progressive suspension.
I've owned a 996 and a two valve ST2....The two valve Ducs seem more fun on the street to me, smooth, predictable and you can ease into the power out of turns and do fun things. The 4 valve was a bit of a handful and any issues I had with it were more probably due to lack of accurate setup than with the bike itself...it was quite sensitive to setup...which would be expected I guess.
20 years down the road....what will be worth more...a standard 916/996 or a "standard" RC51....I kinda think the RC will be worth more, there are a lot fewer of them worldwide and it will be out of production before long. But then I don't think I've ever bought a bike based on resale or even cared what resale value is.
JohnnyB
Funny thing about the Duc's I've owned...they never actually handled badly at all...but they'd do "things"....wag the rear end under hard braking into corners, tad of wallow under hard accleration out of corners. Things I accepted as part of hard riding for years..and even fun sometimes....but then you get on a modern Japanese bike and they do nothing strange, absolutely precise....until they spit you off.
To be honest...if I had to pick one style or the other...I'd probably go with the Duc feel....at least they'd give you a bit of warning prior to disaster. What's was fun about the Duc is it made you feel like a hero at 90mph because it "felt" like you were doing something. Japanese bikes just simply do exactly what you tell them to do...they keep doing it and doing it until you reach your limit, then they throw you down with no mercy.
Being in this house for 16 years now, there is a series of corners that lead down the mountain I've ridden easily 5-600 times on various bikes. In one hard, down hill left braking from about 100 to 50 the Ducs would always wag the back end, nothing bad...even felt cool. On the RC in the same corner it just takes it in stride. On the same corner going the other way the Ducs would always lift the front and carry it 15 ft or so (right hand uphill), always tracked beautifully even on just the back wheel, felt very cool. The RC just rockets around and up the hill.
So...in the long run...who knows, the Ducs felt a bit more fun to ride....more rider participation. The RC felt more like a weapon. RC is probably more suited to track situations...but then that can also just be differences in suspension setup. The RC's have very stiff suspension...too stiff...most recommended mods are geared towards softer more responsive/progressive suspension.
I've owned a 996 and a two valve ST2....The two valve Ducs seem more fun on the street to me, smooth, predictable and you can ease into the power out of turns and do fun things. The 4 valve was a bit of a handful and any issues I had with it were more probably due to lack of accurate setup than with the bike itself...it was quite sensitive to setup...which would be expected I guess.
20 years down the road....what will be worth more...a standard 916/996 or a "standard" RC51....I kinda think the RC will be worth more, there are a lot fewer of them worldwide and it will be out of production before long. But then I don't think I've ever bought a bike based on resale or even cared what resale value is.
JohnnyB
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