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Discussion Starter #1
I'm looking into having batches of OEM brake shoes relined with race compound....not from Vintage Brake but from a source outside the US.

I'd like to be able to stock common brake shoes...CB350, 305/450, T500 etc. Price would probably be in the area of $50-60 a pair(with cores). Bonded compound as opposed to riveted (no I have no idea what difference that might make). Performance can probably be expected to be close to that of Vintage Brake linings. Typically I'd attempt to have the shoes on hand for immediate delivery as opposed to having your original cores relined. For odd shoes I could have the originals relined.

Do you think there is sufficient interest in such an endevor that I persue it?
JohnnyB
 

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yes! especially if its the green ferodo type lining!

tex
 

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j not that,

i was at cosmo the other day and PURSHOK SAID, "HE HAS SOME MORE GCB BRAKES COMING IN SOON". so you should probably call him, get you name on the list, etc etc etc (drop my name bubba).

tex
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Tough to tell yet what compound it is. All these companies like to buy Ferodo compounds and then call them some name of their own creation. Only a couple of companies in the world making compound suitable for race vintage race bikes.
I'll probably have to get some done and just see how they work.
JohnnyB
 

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JohnnyB, I haven't looked into replacement shoes or relining my OEM 450 shoes yet. I'd spend what you're talking about, but probably not much more. I was thinking of sticking with the stock set up for the first few races anyway, but I'd sign up for a set if you do this.

FR
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The reason I want to do this is Vintage Brake get's $150 to reline with race compound...$99 for the reline and $50 to convert to rivets...since he doesn't do bonded. Plus you'll usually wait about six weeks at least.
If this race compound is as good as Vintage Brakes then it should be a real good deal. If it's only 80% as good as Vintage Brakes then it will still be a pretty good option for someone that wants to get better braking than OEM but not spend as much.

Hell, crappy aftermarket NOS shoes usually cost about $30, and they are 30 year old shoes with some pretty poor compound. NOS Vesrah stuff seems pretty good....I'm not impressed with the quality of their shoe cores, but the compound seems decent. They are getting harder to find though.
I'll have to test a couple of sets. I know the Euro vintage guys are using this compound.
JohnnyB
 

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JohnnyB
Good price. Sounds better than the masonite lined shoes I've got in the 175 at this time. Count me in
BFD
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I've got an email out asking for a quote. No response yet, might have to call. I'll let everyone know when I've got something going.
JohnnyB
 

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Thanks for the heads up Tex.. but I'm going to go with Team J.B. he said he has something that even I won't be able to break...
So I have that going for me... which is nice

Gunga galunga...gunga -- gunga galunga.

carl "not that" spackler
 

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Discussion Starter #11
While this topic is at the top again.....

Last night I pulled apart my T500 with VB shoes for the first time in 3 years. I'm not liking what these riveted shoes do to the drums. Most drums I've seen with bonded shoes have a nice smooth surface, this drum after three seasons with riveted shoes has left ridges in the drum...not so much ridges as waves that align with the rows of rivets in the shoes. Normally to clean up a drum you'd just have to have it "skimmed", where they take off very little metal, with these you'd have to take off probably .020" to smooth them out.

Now I'll admit I have no idea why one would rivet instead of bond...I'm sure it's easier to replace the linings on the riveted shoes. But I have a feeling it's more a case of VB not having the equimpment to bond the shoes. I've never seen a set of bonded linings seperate from the shoe core. Also the rivet holes remove a square inch or so of friction surface. But then I've heard the rivet holes also help clear dust from the lining.

Anyway...it looks to me like a bike with a brake you really like could end up with a trashed drum after two or three turnings when using rivets...you can only turn the drum down so far. Another reason I'd like to explore this relining service in Europe..they bond all their linings. I haven't heard back from them yet though.

Just a note to any T500 users. I also discovered that typical ABEC 1 bearings don't seem up to the tolerances needed by this brake. The T500 has some very small bearings, they need to have very little slop in them. The old OEM wheel bearings actually had less slop in them than the new bearings I installed. I'm ordering a set of ABEC 3 class bearings to test now.
JohnnyB
 

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You know, there's really plenty of room for another "Vintage Brake" in the brake shoe field. What's the waiting time with Michael now, 3 months? If some body knew their shit and could make the investment, they could have a nice little deal happening.

Dgy
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Doug, problem is that Moorse has the entire continent of NA locked up for Fedora race compounds. They won't even talk to anyone else.

Same sort of deal you see with Dunlop vintage race tires. Barker is the man in the USA, you have to go outside the country to get them from anyone else.

Amazing these companies still do business that way...in both cases they could be selling a lot more product if they made it commonly available. I'm working on the brake linings. I'll probably end up calling Europe, they don't seem to be answering my emails. It's just a shame you can't get pre-lined race shoes for the common brakes like the honda twins, yamaha 650, suzuki T500 and 4ls. No reason they can't be done in reasonable numbers ahead of time. If I was VB I'd have a guy doing just that...building up a stock of shoes that could go out the door in days instead of months.
JohnnyB
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I'm starting a database of what I call "Drum Brake Power Factors".

It's the width of friction material x length of friction material x diameter of the drum. In inches. Unlike the info available on EuroSpares I'm basing this on the actual dimension of the friction material for a true representation of contact area from one brake to the next. Looks like this:

Suzuki T500 1.57 7.25 8 91.06
Honda 305/450/CB77 1.1875 8.375 7.89 78.47
Honda CB350 1.1875 7.25 7.08 60.95

First number material width, second material length, third diameter of the drum, fourth the product of these measurements.

So....if any of you have an old brake lying around, take the measurements and give them to me so I can add them. I measure friction material length with a tape measure and subtract about 1/4" for leading edge bevel.

The 305/T500 comparison gives an idea how things can be misleading. One might think the T500 has mondo stopping power compared to a 305 due to the much wider shoes...but the fact is that the material on a T500 shoe is considerably shorter in length which brings them closer than one might think in performance. Although I must note that as friction material gets closer to the pivot and cam on a shoe it become less effective...hard to explain without a physics discussion...but true non the less.
JohnnyB
 

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Back in the day, when I was a young lad working at an auto supply store, we used to send out brake shoes for cars, trucks and tractors to be relined by Raybestos. (Probably inhaled more asbestos than was really good for me.) For the cars they did have a "performance" lining. Anyway, I wonder if Raybestos or anyone else makes a suitable lining. Seems like the dimensions are similar to some of the smaller automotive shoes...

FR
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Yep I'd guess the larger 180-220mm bike shoes are very close to the size of some of the small car rear brake shoes.

I'll have to check into that...at the very least it could provide a source for OEM type replacement shoes with an updated compound.

Good idea.
JohnnyB
 

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JohnnyB
I've been down the same road in regard to sourceing Ferodo lining with the same results. Federal Mogul, based in Minnesota I think, owns Ferodo world wide but the English branch actually makes the material. Countless emails finally got a response from the guy in California who sells to VB and said "call Mike". He wasn't interested in selling to anybody else. VB's work is just fine but being the only guy for North America slows you down. I guess a lot of work now is Model A + T owners.
BFD
 
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