Zen was a little weirder... much more abstract
I see what has happened here. Some guys involved with/interested in vintage superbike racing started a website and named it appropriately for the time. Along came a fad, some T.V. shows and pipeburn and all of a sudden dudes with a CB350 and an angle grinder show up to brag about their art project. Idiots got a hold of Chevelles, Mustangs and Chargers and ruined them. The same is happening with vintage bikes. The upside - If you have a nice one that is original, the trend of chopping is making yours increase in value.i don't think people are saying engineers are infallible, they aren't. But the point we try to make with every newbie is that if you are going to modify something - improve it, and at the very least use the same principles of math, science, and logic that the person who designed the thing used.
most conversations with newbies can be summed up like this:
"newbie: hey I just found out about this cool thing by looking at pictures on the Internet. I have never ridden a bike before but I saw them do it on the youstergrams and it looked easy so I bought a completely different type of bike that doesn't run and an angle grinder. Should I cut 6inches off or 7?
cr.net: hey maybe you should get a license, make the bike run, learn to ride, and then read and research some basic things because what you are looking at looks like a bad idea.
newbie: sounds hard, plus I already bought the angle grinder. Can't you just tell me what I have to do to make this thing happen that I see in my mind but you can't?
cr.net: well no because nobody wants your death on their conscience. How about you take some easily attainable baby steps instead?
newbie: but.....angle grinder.....bzzzz.....sparks...then I get cool bike. Beside that guy did it and he's not dead.
cr.net: yet. He's not dead yet. Why listen to us you are just going to ruin your motorcycle anyway.
newbie: you guys are old. I hate you. You're not my real father."
Well written post. This bit ^^^ struck home. I'm not an engineer and wouldn't call myself a technician, but have spent my entire career working with both.I've seen everyone from techs to PhDs from within our company get put into a development engineering position and not last a year. Education doesn't determine who's going to be good or bad at it. Nor does title. .
]I see what has happened here. Some guys involved with/interested in vintage superbike racing
Appropriate because those interested in racing old tech were also interested in riding performance older motorcycles on the street. And many had an interest in the original cafe racers.started a website and named it appropriately for the time.
Along came money, As in someone saw an opportunity in the receding wave of chopperdom to keep interests in motorcycles alive by resurrecting something. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with recycling, and fashion being cyclical, or even money, but a lot of the people trying to drum up interest were applying "chopper" logic to a genre of motorcycles that were the literal antithesis of choppers.Along came a fad, some T.V. shows and pipeburn and all of a sudden dudes with a CB350 and an angle grinder show up to brag about their art project.
I think a better analogy is Hot Rods, vs Street Rods, vs "Kustoms". If you look at the original hot rods of the 40's they grew out of a post war need for speed - old junk being re-purposed to go fast. Some people saw these custom cars and said "I don't need to go fast but I want to make it look cool" and Lead Sled customs grew from that same origin point (same as choppers and racers _ I am oversimplifying here but you get the idea). Much later on you had guys trying to apply both Kustom and hot rod techniques to other cars that weren't normally part of either genre (fat fendered cars from the late 30's to the mid-50's). The hot rod guys didn't want them because they sacrificed speed for comfort, and the Kustom guys didn't want them because they were still "racy" style cars not into the low and slow ethos. These cars became street rods - eventually becoming their own thing and taking their own name.Idiots got a hold of Chevelles, Mustangs and Chargers and ruined them.
Japanese bikes were already increasing in value because they were treated as disposable for so long that many got destroyed before this trend. Honda made 500,000 SOHC cb750s in the production run, compared to 55,000 for all norton commandos made. People saved the commandos mostly, but SOHC cb750s used to litter junkyards, swap meets, yard sales, etc. They used to use the engines to build legends race cars, werido trikes, ultralight airplanes, etc... this is just a new era of the destruction. But also increasing in value is not a on the whole good thing. Yes I would like my 750 to increase in value, but I don't want to be priced out of the market like I have with a lot of other bikes either. There is a balance here that needs to be maintained. I want to see people get into this hobby too, and having a higher price for the bike just means a higher bar to entry.The same is happening with vintage bikes. The upside - If you have a nice one that is original, the trend of chopping is making yours increase in value.
Nobody is changing the name.The bottom line - I have gained some solid advice from this forum. If it had a name like vintagesuperbike.net, the right people would come here seeking fixes to problems that the core group would like to help with. The term "cafe" means just that. Dudes that hang out in cafes. None of the core members hang out in cafes. This is a good place to learn about technical things but it is not at all a place to come to talk about your Seca with knobbies and expect accolades on your artistic vision. That said, Motorcycles are art...so long as art follows function.
I showed up here originally with a GL500 and got a similar reception. In my case, I wasn't planning on making a Cafe Racer (whatever that is) out of it, just shaving off a few hundred pounds and turning it into something a little more interesting to ride. I had been trying to find a 650E, but even though we got them here, they don't come up for sale that often. At the time, I wasn't aware of what people were doing to CX's etc and that most ended up looking like parade floats so understand the reaction. Anyway.... years later and I still have the GL with modifications that include everything but the VIN tag, but bought a MG V11 to scratch the itch for the 650E. Still would be tempted to drag home a 650E if one came along for a decent price.... its a different bike entirely.Special thanks to Geeto67 (the saltiest dog of them all). I came here because I bought a GL500 that I planned to cafe because I had seen some cool builds and I like the engine configuration. His advice to another member boasting of his find - “Open dumpster, insert motorcycle.” Haha! It took me some time to understand why...but I did. Sold it and bought an '80 R100 that I will customize but keep whole.
Because Moto Guzzi's exist and older ones aren't that unapproachable in the US price wise.Begs the question as to why the GL500/650 isn't worth a fortune
I am pretty sure, like 90% sure, that the core frame design between the cx500 & cx650 turbo and the cx650E are the same. Obviously mounting brackets are different but the core design is there. Looking at the GL500 and GL650 frame it looks like they could have been made in the same jig. All three (4?) variants use the pro-link suspension setup so it is possible that the frame has the double wall tubing to make sure the frame isn't twisting under the weight of a passenger. On my ducati with the single offset shock - ducati was very clear that a passenger cannot sit on the rear frame that isn't supported by a second shock because it causes the frame to bend out of square. When they built the two up model of the same bike in 2007 it has twin shocks but no real changes to the frame otherwise. I have to imagine that honda, in it's penny pinching ways, just used the same frame spec for all of them, which is probably why the turbo and E are known for their handling (and also the 37mm forks where as the US market cx500s and cx650s had 33mm forks - except for the "Custom" cx650C which had 39mm).because it already has the desired (sort of) rear suspension. Better frame as well. Similar to 650E, except i don't know if the E has the extra double walled stuff at the rear to support the trunk, bags and rotund passenger. Still has the ugly stamped steel bits though. I've had some interesting conversations about why that engine came into being.
You know the difference between kids and old guys,
Kids don't really want to learn about stuff they just want the answer.
I love how when I was growing up, all the adults would say "don't believe everything you read on the internet" and "Wikipedia isn't a source."Thats bullshit"mothers are equally lazy old guys too, they just know not to stand their ground and pick a fight when they get told no