[Geeto67]

I used the FZR400 swingarm on the H1 frame because I used to have both an FZR400 and an FZR600 when they were just throw away used bikes. Being plugged into the yahoo FZR400 group allowed me to score an entire fzr400 rear setup wheel to pivot, and having the fzr400 bke around allowed me to measure stuff before I bought anything. I knew I wanted the 400 because alloy.

The fzr600 arm is easier to work with because...steel. I personally kept it twin shock because I really didn't want to reinvent the wheel with this and I really wanted an otherwise stock looking bike and even wanted to retain the side covers. At one point this was the first h1 with the fzr swingarm swap (I knew of one other h2 and that guy gave me advice), but looking at it now some of the plans I had for it seem dated and cafe cliches (CEV speedo headlight bucket off an italian bike? so 2005).

To be honest this project taught me a lot more about what not to do than what to do and be successful. The h1 I bought was even missing it's title. The only good thing I did was get the junkyard h1 running before I tore the whole thing apart (literally all apart) to do the suspension. Every Newbie mistake that you could possibly make with a bike I have made it and learned the hard lesson. It was a doomed project from the start and as such I have reduced the bikes to a pile of parts in a storage locker and reformulated a plan...which I will get to in a minute.

If I had to do this all over again, there is a GSXR front end the kawi 2 stroke guys use that is a direct bolt on with bearings. the FZR stem used the same lower diameter as the h1 but the stem was much longer and tapered and I couldn't find a top bearing in the odd size it was which is why I did the stem swap. I wouldn't do it again, I would just chase down that GSXR front end.

so my new plan is a 1971 frame, 1969 bodywork, 1974 h2 engine, and the FZR suspension parts. I am going to have to build the harness from scratch but I am going to try to use stock h2 CDI components. The biggest issue I am dealing with now is that it may require offset shocks because the mounts on the shock mounts on the 74 frame are wider spaced than on the 71 frame. I could just redo the shock mounts but that was a lot more work and besides I think there is a harley sportster that used offset mount shocks in the amount of offset I need (about 1/4"). All this is moot because the projects I want to get to in front of it are: the dunstall norton, the rickman cr750, and my old drag bike kh500.

 

[Geeto67]

A couple of things that just bubbled up to the surface of my brain while thinking about this.

At the time I used the 1989 FZR400 rear wheel also because it was 3.50 wide (fzr600s except for 1989 which also had a 3.50) and an 18" rear and in my stupid head this wouldn't upset the h1 chassis too much since the rear on the h1 was an 18" and the 140 tire I wanted to run wasn't that big a jump from the 120 stock tire. Did I mention I did this all when I was horribly green? I also thought the 17" front was a great idea because that's what the stock fzr used and how else do you mimic handling by using the same parts. Rake, trail, and wheelbase didn't even occur to me at the time, fortunately since revisiting it worked out that rake and trail are ok, but the wheel base inflated by a couple of inches which for the intended purpose of the bike as a street only GT roadster, rather than a race replica, seemed to make sense in that it might help eliminate some of the h1's inherent short wheelbase twitchy-ness. I am not saying I made smart choices with this by the way, but in some cases I am stuck with what I am stuck with.

Now about the sprockets and chain line. On the h1 engine there was a Triumph TT600 engine sprocket I lucked into discovering was an offset perfect for the FZR rear sprocket carrier. I couldn't tell you the year now but the spline count and offset was perfect. The FZR400 I think used a weird chain size (468?), but my goal was to go to a 520 with custom sprockets till I saw what custom sprockets cost. I discovered this right around 2003 so I don't think it is the 2003-2004 TT600 models. Oddly enough one TT600 forum has told me 96~98 ZX6R and 01~03 GSXR600 are interchangeable.

 

[TSwami]

Thanks, Thats a lot of information for me to ponder. My biggest concern is what rear end. Which swingarm to use and that depends on whether I go monoshock or not. I also have to consider chain alignment and sprockets as you mentioned.

I hate hate hate 3 spoke mag wheels, I think they look horrible and a ton of bikes in the past ten years have used them. I refuse. If I cant use the R6 Dymag wheels I'll look into Honda 929/954 whatever bike that was that had the 5/6 spoke wheels or something different. I think the R6 wheels may be 5.5 wide which may be too much to use.

This bike will not be a "cafe" or race replica or like that kwikasfaki bike in the modern frame. I think that thing is hideous although I'm sure its a blast to ride. I want a sleeper that is fast and handles well enough for we to throw it around when the urge strikes.

I have the frame, bodywork, engine, wheels, carbs, and electrics. I just need to work out the rear and then I can get the appropriate length forks and start making it come together.

 

[TSwami]

Two questions:

1 How much lighter is the FZ 400 swingarm vs the 600 steel one? Will this weight difference make a significant difference? I assume its still in NY so you couldnt weigh?

2 How much better, not considering weight, would a monoshock be compared to some really nice dual shock setup on an H1 with the H2 engine? I mean like if I dumped money into some ohlins rear shocks or something? Will I even notice the difference?

 

[Geeto67]

1) Well first off it's unsprung weight so any little bit makes a huge difference. IIRC, and it has been years since I weighed them, there is approx a 20lb difference between them.

2) I can't answer that. The "hinge" in the frame is in the frame itself, not in the suspension bits. So without bracing in the frame it is still going to be the same old flexy flier h1, a bike kenny roberts once described as winding up like a spring in the corner entry to allow it to spring forward upon exit. Don't get me wrong, good suspension bits will absolutely be felt as decades of kawasaki racing experimentation has shown, but if you are doing this all on a stock, unmodified frame then it is the same as building a tubbed 9 second drag car without a rollcage. There is a reason why all the triple road racer frames look radically different than the street bike stuff and every frame builder like rickman and dresda tried to make this engine work in other chassis.

 

[Geeto67]

I do not have an objection to the three spoke rims:

but some of the Japanese guys have figured out how to do VFR single sided arm swaps. I think it was a Swedish or dutch guy who figured it out first.

But the japanese guys love their monoshocks.

not that the english don't have their share of love for these bikes:

 

[TSwami]

Wow 20lbs?!? Out of a swingarm. Crazy. I need to weigh mine tonight and see how much it weighs. I wasn't expecting that much difference.

Let me ask this, can I assume sice you are going twin shocker you don't feel the monoshock is enough of an advantage to be worth the time?

Like all the newbs say I already have a fast bike so this one just needs to look pretty blah blah blah. I have several other bikes and Im not racing so I want to be able to ride it and have fun but Im not chasing gixxers or going for a trophy. With that said it isn't about looks I want it to handle better than stock but I'm not trying to make it into an R6.

I do plan on bracing the frame once I get all of the planning worked out on suspension, thats why I didnt really mention it. I could use an H2 frame I have but the 500 seems to be a better frame after some bracing and tweaking.

 

[Geeto67]

Wow 20lbs?!? Out of a swingarm. Crazy. I need to weigh mine tonight and see how much it weighs. I wasn't expecting that much difference.

I said roughly or approx. Actual weight may vary. I do remember the 400 arm being shockingly light and the 600 arm being shockingly and unnecessarily heavy. Also be advised the 88-89 400 arm is different than the 90 arm (for US bikes) and I think the earlier arm is lighter. It is an extremely noticeable difference that is for sure.

Let me ask this, can I assume sice you are going twin shocker you don't feel the monoshock is enough of an advantage to be worth the time?

When I started this project I was a single student working in a one car garage I shared with a car without access to a welder, a shop, or even a lift, and only hand tools. everything I needed to weld or machine I had to take somewhere and pay for someone to do. I was lucky in that I had good friends in the New Orleans bike community (pre-katrina) and was able to get the work done I needed done for less than $200. I didn't want to have to figure out how to relocate a battery, or create more custom stuff that required welding or fabrication. It wasn't a matter of effort or improvement this was a "budget" project for me and I needed to be smart about my logistics and economics. I would have loved to throw buckets of money at this bike but I just didn't have it. Did I mention I made every newbie mistake?

If i had this to do over I probably would have mono-shocked it since I had a wrecked FZR600 at my disposal (and the 600 subframe is steel and could have just been cut out and welded in). I thought about it a lot but in the end it was ability and finances that dictated the direction and I was already in over my head.

Like all the newbs say I already have a fast bike so this one just needs to look pretty blah blah blah. I have several other bikes and Im not racing so I want to be able to ride it and have fun but Im not chasing gixxers or going for a trophy. With that said it isn't about looks I want it to handle better than stock but I'm not trying to make it into an R6.

kawasaki triples are one of those bikes where you are just trying to bring them up to par. Dead stock they are no more or less than most 70's jap stuff, but the moment you start to make more power with it the bike's flaws all bubble up to the surface at once and it ends up just being a poor handling savage animal. I don't think anyone will fault you for what you are trying to do here, if there was ever a bike that needed real mods it is this one.

I do plan on bracing the frame once I get all of the planning worked out on suspension, thats why I didnt really mention it. I could use an H2 frame I have but the 500 seems to be a better frame after some bracing and tweaking.

The 73-75 h1 frames are better than the h2, they still don't handle worth a shit but they don't flex as much. the KH500 is the best stock frame and it doesn't flex (and also doesn't handle) so at least it is predictable. The real flexy fliers are the 69-72 h1 and 72-73 h2s - even the grab rails are structural on them.

 

[Geeto67]

BTW, you don't have to go crazy - history has proven that if you take the lotus approach to these bikes as well they tend to handle better also. Scrambler73 on the kawi board built that beautiful kh500/750 that used mostly stock parts but was 360 lbs wet. KH500 frame, alloy tank and oil tank, fiberglass seat, s1 rear hub, stock forks, ex500 brake conversion, fzr400 swingarm, works shocks, mini headlight, led signals and tail:

the whole bike was a study in lightness and how far one could take it with a street bike that still handled.

 

[TSwami]

Still not feeling any of those 3 spokes, yuck. The mismatched wheel are even worse. The single sided swinger is pretty cool though.

You still have this project bike don't you? Is the direction still budget minded?

I just finished a couple months ago welding certifications and feel confident with plenty of parts and enough understanding to do it but if the advantages aren't big enough then its more of a risk for me than a reward. If I do it and fail it may never get done whereas if I just stick with a twin shock steel 600 swingarm it can move a lot faster. I may have just answered my own questions. I think I was asking really to make sure someone didnt speak up and say im an idiot and it has to be mono or the bike will never work. Will it be perfect a little heavier and twin shocked, no but it will probably get done.

I'll weigh my swingarm tongiht and see what it weighs, I also have another one on the shelf that I got in some H2 parts that isnt stock but I dont know what it came off of. I'll weigh it too and see if I can figure out what it is. I also need to weigh the wheels to see how much of a weight savings I am getting and if I have room to clear the chain.

 

[TSwami]

That bike is kind of what I want my RD to look like. Super lightweight minimalistic, not cafe open triangle but real lightweight awesomeness.

The H1 frame is a 1975 and I have several of every year H2 engines so I will be building the engine as solid of a performer as I can and still have it reliable.

 

[Geeto67]

btw, here is Cody's latest project and a 53 page thread, it's worth a look:

Kawi2strokes.com Forum ? View topic - hybrid project... chasing gremlins.. CAUGHT HIM!

 

[Geeto67]

Still not feeling any of those 3 spokes, yuck. The mismatched wheel are even worse. The single sided swinger is pretty cool though.

You still have this project bike don't you? Is the direction still budget minded?

Yes and no. Now that I am married with a kid and saving for a house there is very little disposable income for this nonsense. However there are some things I am not going to be able to cheap out on and will have to redo. I don't mind spending for the right parts if they are best solution for the issue, but I also don't want to spend for unnecessary work that will prolong anything. All this is moot because like I said, the project is jammed into a closet and not going anywhere. It is so far from running I would like to get some of my other projects that are much closer out of the way. I have a street racer 1976 cb750F that just needs me to throw parts and money at it and it's a fully functioning motorcycle which I can sell and fund other things....but I need the bike to be in ohio first.

I just finished a couple months ago welding certifications and feel confident with plenty of parts and enough understanding to do it but if the advantages aren't big enough then its more of a risk for me than a reward. If I do it and fail it may never get done whereas if I just stick with a twin shock steel 600 swingarm it can move a lot faster. I may have just answered my own questions. I think I was asking really to make sure someone didnt speak up and say im an idiot and it has to be mono or the bike will never work. Will it be perfect a little heavier and twin shocked, no but it will probably get done.

the h series bikes are really so screwed with the world over that every configuration has been tried. I seem to remember 10 years ago there was a Japanese ex-pat in hawaii who was making swingarm setups with eccentric axle adjusters and in either mono or dual shock flavor. MotoCarrera and trac dynamics make off the shelf bolt on parts that honestly if they had existed at the time I was first doing this I would have just spent the money and bought one (hence another noob mistake - throwing jewelry at junk for the sake of look and lack of understanding). If I had it to do over I am not sure the tact I would take. Knowing what I know now I might do an h series in an S series frame instead and just kept it light.

I'll weigh my swingarm tongiht and see what it weighs, I also have another one on the shelf that I got in some H2 parts that isnt stock but I dont know what it came off of. I'll weigh it too and see if I can figure out what it is. I also need to weigh the wheels to see how much of a weight savings I am getting and if I have room to clear the chain.

I think when I weighed stuff back in 2002 I weighed the whole assemblies (wheel, brake, arm, etc) and that is where the 20lb difference came from. It was a 1989 fzr400 setup with a 3.50 wheel and a 1994 FZR600 setup with a 4.00 wheel. But then again there is a reason guys jam 600 motors into the little fzr400 - done right there is actually a 600 powered street going one that is 298lbs wet, but that is an extreme diet.

 

[Geeto67]

Oh it will never run. And it will still be better than any Kawi twin ever made.

 

[Geeto67]

that makes perfect sense

If you knew anything about kz750 twins it really does.

 

[jaguar]

Hey, at least this guy is getting attention.
i almost want to send him a rebuilt master so he can ride the bike to some parking lot. Bet the guys there will love him

 

[Geeto67]

We are saying the same thing about you - you already beat my under/over in less than an hour

 

[jaguar]

And then you could come back and list it for $6300 at least!

 

[Teazer]

Yes and no. Now that I am married with a kid and saving for a house there is very little disposable income for this nonsense. However there are some things I am not going to be able to cheap out on and will have to redo. I don't mind spending for the right parts if they are best solution for the issue, but I also don't want to spend for unnecessary work that will prolong anything. All this is moot because like I said, the project is jammed into a closet and not going anywhere. It is so far from running I would like to get some of my other projects that are much closer out of the way. I have a street racer 1976 cb750F that just needs me to throw parts and money at it and it's a fully functioning motorcycle which I can sell and fund other things....but I need the bike to be in ohio first. .

FZR400 is a neat little bike. We have an ex race - its hardly been raced and never dropped - yeah right - baby fizzer and it's a lot of fun. I somewhat rashly thought if the 400 is good the 1000 must be more good, so I scooped up a frame and swingarm to slip a GT750 motor into. I mean why should the H2 guys have all the fun with their smelly tiny little motors. Of course a GT750 motor is not light or short or small or any other words that are usually associated with performance but teh combo did look good until I realized there was no room at the inn for a set of carbs. Back to the drawing board.

BTW Geeto, you are dead wrong about Kawasaki twins. I really like the A1Ra and the replica frame with an S series triple is more gooder. So to speak.

 

[jaguar]

After you off the F do you think you would be more or less likely to sell me the bones from the K0/1 project?
Ill let you borrow the seeley....lol

you coming back to the island around the holidays?
i assume if you were you wouldn't be driving....