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4124 Views 63 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  jbranson
I used some MR8 at the last race. Frontierdon. Awesome. F'in unbelievable. I am now a believer. But I found out on the VP page that MR8 is for 125 and 250 2 smokes. Octane 107, leaded, oxygenated, yellow in color. I was running a 4 stroke 500 single.

The VP web page says this shit can be shipped UPS!!

I guess if it works it works. What isn't on their web page is

1. how long it lasts and
2. it says on the can not to leave in the carb/tank. But for how long?
3. I am going for a dyno test on Friday at MM. We'll see. All I know is I kept up with TK's 650 duc. (but he did say there was a "shimmy" in the steering)

I just need to get my post count up.
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oxygenated fuels pack a substrate containing oxygen into the fuel. This is not a performance enhancing measure but rather it is done to reduce the amount of carbon monoxide put out by an engine. I think there must be some performance benefit since nitrous oxide, methanol injection, and other chemical power adders (ahem.....hydrozine....ahem) all work of the principle of jamming more oxygen into the combustion chamber - but the real use is so that there are free oxygen molecules to bond with the carbon monoxide molecules post combustion.

On a standard engine the air fuel mixture creates a thin layer on the crown of the piston called the barrier layer which keeps the heat of combustion from destroying the piston. With detonation an uneven flame front is created with lateral explosion forces as well as vertical, and the barrier layer is consumed as part of the initial combustion process(instead of forming a carbon deposit on the crown from incomplete combsution - BTW this is also how a lean condition casuses a hole in the piston). Nowadays there are pistons which have a thermal barrier coating which make racing engines more resistant to detonation effects. This is formula 1 style technology although some trickle down is starting to happen (mahle and a few other piston suppliers have begun to make coated pistons).

Finally 94 octane or higher no lead gasoline isn't going to do much harm to a perfectly tuned stock engine, but it wont do much good for it either (there are some bikes that lose power running on higher octane). If the engine is out of tune, espically with regard to ignition timing that is a different story. That being said I wonder if there isn't some small benefit in running 94 in a roadrace engine which tends to see more high rpm low speed abuse than a street bike. Sure the back straight cools the engine down but I wonder what kind of heat builds in a roadrace engine through chicanes and other twsty sections of the track. For now I am going to chalk it up to all in your head but it would be worth investigating on a dyno.
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I can assure you VP doesn't oxgenate fuels to reduce emmissions. They all but promise a 6% power increase with their oxygenated fuels. And as most racers will tell you...VP knows their stuff.

When you spend 30 or 40 hours in the seat of the same race bike you get a pretty educated butt when it comes to how the engine is running. I can without a doubt tell you after a race if the bike had pump gas, race gas (Sunoco) or VP in the tank. Probably half of the street bikes I've owned responded very noticably to race fuels like CAM2....I don't claim the difference was due to octane though. The other half would run the same...or worse.

Presently I plan on switching from VP C12 to VP U4 specifically to get a lower octane. In the case of my race engine with only about 10:1 compression I'm probably giving up some power running 108 octane VP C12. The U4 is around 94 octane.

The major difference I've seen between pump fuels and race fuels is that in almost every case the race fuels will see more complete combustion during a race...almost always indicated by a plug that begins to run more lean. Race fuels often require jetting up a size for the plug to read the same as with pump gas.
JohnnyB
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quote:
I can assure you VP doesn't oxgenate fuels to reduce emmissions. They all but promise a 6% power increase with their oxygenated fuels. And as most racers will tell you...VP knows their stuff.

When you spend 30 or 40 hours in the seat of the same race bike you get a pretty educated butt when it comes to how the engine is running. I can without a doubt tell you after a race if the bike had pump gas, race gas (Sunoco) or VP in the tank. Probably half of the street bikes I've owned responded very noticably to race fuels like CAM2....I don't claim the difference was due to octane though. The other half would run the same...or worse.

Presently I plan on switching from VP C12 to VP U4 specifically to get a lower octane. In the case of my race engine with only about 10:1 compression I'm probably giving up some power running 108 octane VP C12. The U4 is around 94 octane.

The major difference I've seen between pump fuels and race fuels is that in almost every case the race fuels will see more complete combustion during a race...almost always indicated by a plug that begins to run more lean. Race fuels often require jetting up a size for the plug to read the same as with pump gas.
JohnnyB
Branson, not doubting anyone's butt dyno - I'm sure y'all get very good at telling what makes a difference in the bike. I do however know some very expirenced pilots who when they fly over water they think their engine suddenly runs rough, so it is possible through fear or desire for a very expirenced person to fool themselves into thinking there is an effect or the effect is greater than it is.

After some thought about it I think the biggest gain is by using bottled race fuel over pum gas is that bottled fuel is very clean where as pump gas is contaminated. Most pump gas contains at least trace amounts of water, plus silt from the tanks, some gas that has gone bad sitting in the tank, and god knows what else. Bottled race fuels usually just contain fuel - that probably accounts for the biggest difference in power.

As for why VP oxygenates their fuel, they claim both power and emissions on their website:

"Oxygenated with ethanol, this CARB-legal fuel is well-suited for high-performance street cars. It's environmentally friendly and street legal throughout the U.S. Dyno tests with a turbocharged application proved StreetBlaze 100 generates 14% more horsepower compared to premium grade 91 octane unleaded gasoline."

"Motorsport 100 is oxygenated with ethanol. It meets California Air Resource Board (CARB) requirements and is street legal throughout the U.S. Generates substantial power increases over premium grade 92 octane unleaded gasoline."

They also state several times that their oxygenated fuel makes 6% more hp over non-oxygenated fuels, but are vague as to whether it is the oxygenation (is that a word?) or because of other things (like selling 100 octane as a replacement for 91 and 92 octane)

They also have a lousy FAQ section (ok none at all) and don't really talk about oxygenation or why it is important to the fuel.
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All I can say is....if a person needs an opinion on race fuel....they should talk to a racer. If they want an opinion on street fuel...talk to a street rider.
I'm not much for theory when experience is available. And to be honest...I have the experience when it comes to racing the same engine, at the same track, in the same conditions, with different fuels. I've also got about 50 dyno runs on this engine...but while none of them were done to specifically test one fuel to another. I am pretty good and comparing my seat of the pants dyno to actual dyno readings.
You can ask any of the guys here I race with, they will tell you I am not one to believe in untested theory, rumor or conjecture. I am rabidly anal about actual and real performance and my results on the track show it.
In most instances reading or guessing about how fuel might work in a particular instance is no replacement for the actual experience of running 100's of laps on various fuels and noting the differences.

You've quoted a couple of sentences off the VP site discussing particular fuels...VP makes about 50 different fuels. Oxygenating leaded race fuel is not done to reduce emissions, whether that is a by product of the process or not. Leaded race fuels are not known for being friendly to the environment. The two fuels you mention are both unleaded street legal fuels that far from the same as the specialty leaded race fuels we are discussing.

While I'm no chemist....I CAN tell someone how a particular fuel will most likely perform in their race motorcycle. Not by guessing, but based on my experience with these fuels.

And while mentally unstable pilots may have fantasies about their engines. I assure you I didn't build what is probably the fastest Honda 175 race bike in the country based on my imagination :)
JohnnyB
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quote:
All I can say is....if a person needs an opinion on race fuel....they should talk to a racer. If they want an opinion on street fuel...talk to a street rider.
I'm not much for theory when experience is available. And to be honest...I have the experience when it comes to racing the same engine, at the same track, in the same conditions, with different fuels. I've also got about 50 dyno runs on this engine...but while none of them were done to specifically test one fuel to another. I am pretty good and comparing my seat of the pants dyno to actual dyno readings.
You can ask any of the guys here I race with, they will tell you I am not one to believe in untested theory, rumor or conjecture. I am rabidly anal about actual and real performance and my results on the track show it.
In most instances reading or guessing about how fuel might work in a particular instance is no replacement for the actual experience of running 100's of laps on various fuels and noting the differences.

You've quoted a couple of sentences off the VP site discussing particular fuels...VP makes about 50 different fuels. Oxygenating leaded race fuel is not done to reduce emissions, whether that is a by product of the process or not. Leaded race fuels are not known for being friendly to the environment. The two fuels you mention are both unleaded street legal fuels that far from the same as the specialty leaded race fuels we are discussing.

While I'm no chemist....I CAN tell someone how a particular fuel will most likely perform in their race motorcycle. Not by guessing, but based on my experience with these fuels.

And while mentally unstable pilots may have fantasies about their engines. I assure you I didn't build what is probably the fastest Honda 175 race bike in the country based on my imagination :)
JohnnyB
Dude...chill the fuck out. It wasn't meant to be an attak on your personally. Years of race expirence absolutely have some credibility when it comes to racing. All I am saying is nothing is set in stone when it comes to an educated guess (that is a guess based on past epxirence without hard numbers to back it up) and there are still falibilities when it comes educated guesses in the absence of hard numbers.

As for this:

quote:And while mentally unstable pilots may have fantasies about their engines. I assure you I didn't build what is probably the fastest Honda 175 race bike in the country based on my imagination :)
hopes and dreams, or wishes, or butterfly wing dust didn't build yout 175. You built it out of trial and error, and logical problem solving, and expirementation, and frankly just straight out thinking about it. While you may call it your imagination it is still very scientific in nature. Sure you used feel as well as hard numbers in homebrewing your race bike and I commend you for the feat. However I find yout take on a well known and documented phenomenon that affect everybody (not just pilots) and the expirenced and inexpirenced alike just plain ignorant.

You are right about what I quoted from VP is for street fuels. Frankly their website doesn't make any claims as to power adding or emissions concerning oxygenated when it comes to their race fuels at all. All I am saying is that the fuel companies are intentionally vague when it comes to what ethanol or MTBE or any oxygenating compound actually does. The only information I can find about oxygented fuel relates to emissions (although the federal government also makes the claim that it enhances combustion without explaining how: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/oxygenate.htm ). Most oxygenating power additives contain some other catalyst that is the power adder (nitromenthane for example).

You say that vp doesn't add oxygenating compounds to their LEADED race fuels to reduce emissions - then why do they do it? The lead is the octane catalyst they need, why add the oxygenating catalyst as well? My only point is they don't make any solid non-vague power claims as to the oxygenating compound when it comes to race fuels.


I don't like alcohols as a fuel in general because they have a greater density than gasoline, require more fuel make only slighly more power. In drag racing alcohol is popular not because it makes more power but it's cooling properties make engines more reliable. There are top alcohol and top funny car drivers who can run whole races on the same engine where as their nitro counterparts have a tear down and rebuild between each run.
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Man kinda sorry I got involved in this discussion at all. Now I am going to do my bobbing head doll act and agree with everybody.
First off, Johnny is absolutely right in that after years of racing the same machine, you can absolutely tell how it is running. The nice thing is he has dyno runs to back it up to one degree or another. I have never tried different fuels in the same race bike without other changes except my one Honda 500 single. That went from a piston breaker to a valve dropper, but ran good on race gas.(over revving causesd valve issues, octane caused piston issues.) As Johnny also pointed out, about half of the street bikes he has tried, race gas does not improve performance. I don't think there is any question that Johnny's race bike responds to race uel, but since it is 10:1 compression, how much of the need for race fuel is dictated by other factors such as flame front speed and combustion chamber shape at higher RPM than a stocker runs on the street? Which leads me o wonder what isgoing on in Tex's mostly stock motor at race conditions, i.e. heat and RPM, that makes it like race gas?

Geeto has also stated that in a stock or mostly stock street bike race gas does not improve performance and may even run worse. That is predicted by theory and somewhat backed up by empirical data.

I would really like to see some controlled experiments with a variety of stock motors and a variety of fuels. I wonder if older or newer combustion chamber shapes react differently to race gass? But I don't have a dyno or even my race bike to play with right now so I am still just having to use other peoples data and results.
However, Next season I am going to try race gas back to back with pump gas on my mostly stock 350 at a track day.

Ken ( trying to make nice) Essex

AHRMA 412
Vintage racing - old guys on old bikes
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quote: how much of the need for race fuel is dictated by other factors such as flame front speed and combustion chamber shape at higher RPM than a stocker runs on the street?
A lot.
The first time you see a bike come into the pits after a race with condensation dripping off the float bowls full of C12 you realize there is more at play than just octane.

I've personally never seen ANY vintage bike run worse with race fuel in a Road Race situation. It's not often you run a street bike at WOT, 10-12,000 rpm for 20-30 minutes straight. The racing environment cannot be compared to the street. Pump fuels are just plain not made to operate under these conditions, street fuels have to be formulated for easy starting, cold weather starting, good idle, low emissions, minimal valve deposits, tolerance of moisture, non-corrosive etc etc etc. Race fuels do not. If you ride your bike on the street....use street fuel. If you race it on a track...use race fuel.
I promise you the three guys standing on the podium will be using race fuel.
JohnnyB
i am sold on it. pretty much over the pump fuel program.

dude
and something else jb is missing here. yuo dont typically run your bike on a dyno for that amount of time either. so really, prsonally, i think its only another benchmark. when my motor is done, its a stocker, ill be sure to run some race gas, as well as pump gas and see what kind of numbers it makes. im not going to dump 500 bucks into gas, but ill run some u4 and sunoco race of a couple different sorts. if anyone wants to know what else runs, ill see what i can get done when the time comes. and ill be sure to update you guys when the time comes. if youre all still arguing about it.

this is turning into another "street riders dont know crap about race bikes" argument.

now kiss and make up! its going to be a long winter.

jc
tex's motorcycle: cb350 engine + k0 cam + 4th over pistons + vp u4 fuel + dyna coils and ignition - no porting - no other mods except brakes and suspension = race winning motorcycle!

lately my bike has been very off. that could be caused by the fact that i haven't had it apart in three years, and i believe that i need a set of rings, cam chain, etc.....

i have changed the oil, and i just got a slightly used rear tire though.

VP U4 rocks!

i wish i could still afford it.

texy

"bitches!"
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Texy,
That is exactly like my motor except I have a ported head, too. What carbs are you running? I am running stockers and feel like they are running out of breathing on top end.
When you come to work for me you will be able to afford all the race gas you can drink.

Ken

AHRMA 412
Vintage racing - old guys on old bikes
One problem with testing fuel on the dyno is it only gives you a snapshot of performance. Pump gas might make good power the first minute an engine is run. But after 20 minutes at WOT conditions are going to be quite different.
In all the dyno runs I've done the engine has never gotten close to the extreme temps it sees and the end of a race on a hot day. A inertial dyno basically tests under "street" conditions. Relatively cool engine, short bursts of accleration. Road Racing is pretty much the opposite situation, very hot engine, long periods at max load. Pump gas can behave very differently coming out of a 80 degree float bowl compared to a 150 degree float bowl.

Like Joe said...dyno is just a tool. The rest is lap times and yes...feel.
JohnnyB
One problem with testing fuel on the dyno is it only gives you a snapshot of performance. Pump gas might make good power the first minute an engine is run. But after 20 minutes at WOT conditions are going to be quite different.
In all the dyno runs I've done the engine has never gotten close to the extreme temps it sees and the end of a race on a hot day. A inertial dyno basically tests under "street" conditions. Relatively cool engine, short bursts of accleration. Road Racing is pretty much the opposite situation, very hot engine, long periods at max load. Pump gas can behave very differently coming out of a 80 degree float bowl compared to a 150 degree float bowl.

Like Joe said...dyno is just a tool. The rest is lap times and yes...feel.
JohnnyB
You can calculate roughly what your supposed to be using for fuel buy figuring out what your static compression is and using a formula to get dynamic compression. Its based on your static compression, your stroke, the volume its pushing, and your cam (lobe height and degrees opened) closing the intake valve after BDC. With this information you can figure out that with a lot of high performance cams you loose a lot of true compression (dynamic). After you realize how much compression you don't have you'll realize that the high octane fuel is a waste of money and fuel. Thats why a lot of vintage racers are finding that U4 works pretty well. Its not to high an octane level but is oxygenated. The best way to find out what works is too try it.

I can honestly say I've dynoed more then most people on this board. Its a tool but not the end result. I've gone from dynoing in MA in Febuary and gone up 5 jet sizes at Daytona in March and still was too lean. After engineering a motor, its not really about making horse power, its maintaining your power with controling the temperature. An RS125 is a perfect example of managing temp.

Oh yeah... If you put Stabil in your race fuel you should get a hammer and hit yourself over the head with it.

Aaron
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You can calculate roughly what your supposed to be using for fuel buy figuring out what your static compression is and using a formula to get dynamic compression. Its based on your static compression, your stroke, the volume its pushing, and your cam (lobe height and degrees opened) closing the intake valve after BDC. With this information you can figure out that with a lot of high performance cams you loose a lot of true compression (dynamic). After you realize how much compression you don't have you'll realize that the high octane fuel is a waste of money and fuel. Thats why a lot of vintage racers are finding that U4 works pretty well. Its not to high an octane level but is oxygenated. The best way to find out what works is too try it.

I can honestly say I've dynoed more then most people on this board. Its a tool but not the end result. I've gone from dynoing in MA in Febuary and gone up 5 jet sizes at Daytona in March and still was too lean. After engineering a motor, its not really about making horse power, its maintaining your power with controling the temperature. An RS125 is a perfect example of managing temp.

Oh yeah... If you put Stabil in your race fuel you should get a hammer and hit yourself over the head with it.

Aaron
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I would have been using U4 too....if you remember to bring me any.

JohnnyB
I would have been using U4 too....if you remember to bring me any.

JohnnyB
The other aspect of going fast is restricting your friends from the one thing you do know.

Sorry dude.

Aaron
The other aspect of going fast is restricting your friends from the one thing you do know.

Sorry dude.

Aaron
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