Good Wood..
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I should be there for it next year. I cant wait! And those for the most part arent real nortons i dont think. (gee, how many times have you sat in a bar and thought that!?) I think those are mostly modern nortons racing. Im hoping to make it over for the revival next september. If kirsten and i go, we will have vip passes from lotus to get into everything. woohoo!!!
jc
jc
Goodwood isn't really a race and 90% of the vehciles are real. Basically, it is an estate with a race track on it and while the cars and bikes are techincally competeting they are too valuable for the sort of fenderbashing that comes in real racing. There is also a flying aprade lap for the vechiles that are not competition prepped or the onwers don't want them mashed. For the last couple of years General motors has shipped everything there from smokey yunick stock cars to the firebird prototypes (I, II, and III from the 50's and 60's) to do flying parade laps and Ford has sent what original GT40s it could get a hold of for the "Races". If there are real D-type jaguars and real factory zo6 corvettes (60's not new) mixing it up why would you think the nortons aren't real? I think even the real Sonoco camaros from the 60's have spun a wheel there (but they are also still raced in SCCA). I know Paul Smart raced there this year in the Barry Sheene Memorial Trophy.
Anyway here is the official site:
http://www.goodwood.co.uk/revival/
here is a good site for 1999 pictures.
http://www.goodwood-racing.com/g99reval/BIKES.htm
and I know at least one of the nortons was real because a friend of mine sent his '62 manx norton there and that bike is real as it can get.
the Festival of Speed is also really good with even more "star" cars and bikes (this is the one where Honda uses bikes from it's collection and Sammy Miller's Museum also brings bikes) There is a hill climb for cars and bikes (TT) but it is more focused on people like Ago, spenser, etc...:
http://www.goodwood.co.uk/fos/
Edited by - Geeto67 on Dec 20 2005 11:08:15 AM
Anyway here is the official site:
http://www.goodwood.co.uk/revival/
here is a good site for 1999 pictures.
http://www.goodwood-racing.com/g99reval/BIKES.htm
and I know at least one of the nortons was real because a friend of mine sent his '62 manx norton there and that bike is real as it can get.
the Festival of Speed is also really good with even more "star" cars and bikes (this is the one where Honda uses bikes from it's collection and Sammy Miller's Museum also brings bikes) There is a hill climb for cars and bikes (TT) but it is more focused on people like Ago, spenser, etc...:
http://www.goodwood.co.uk/fos/
Edited by - Geeto67 on Dec 20 2005 11:08:15 AM
yeah, and d'angelo doesnt really race his 200 and 350 hard.
get a clue. i dont know how much racing youve done, but ive done a little and trust me, there is plenty of racing going on. obsolete doesnt sponser guys who cant or wont win becasue they dont want to wad a bike.
jc
get a clue. i dont know how much racing youve done, but ive done a little and trust me, there is plenty of racing going on. obsolete doesnt sponser guys who cant or wont win becasue they dont want to wad a bike.
jc
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10,737 Posts
geet,
what i think joe is talking about is the replica nortons. in my opinion a molnar, summerfeld, or petty manx norton replica is not the same as your buddies 1962.
in my honest opinion they aren't the same. i still would love to ride/own one, but matching a replica against an original isn't fair or competitive.
and you can bet your ass if joe c and i were able to ride our cb350's there, we would definately race, trade paint, and make complete asses of ourselves.
peace,
tex "the graduate" mawby
what i think joe is talking about is the replica nortons. in my opinion a molnar, summerfeld, or petty manx norton replica is not the same as your buddies 1962.
in my honest opinion they aren't the same. i still would love to ride/own one, but matching a replica against an original isn't fair or competitive.
and you can bet your ass if joe c and i were able to ride our cb350's there, we would definately race, trade paint, and make complete asses of ourselves.
peace,
tex "the graduate" mawby
Joined
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10,737 Posts
joe,
i remember seeing roper wad a bunch of bikes just doin' the do!
f'ing g50's summersalting, etc.
my favorite was when he went off nhis around t9/10 into the gravel. there was a giant clusterfuck that occured then, red flagged, etc...
team obsolete run the bike back to their garage, hold the g50 up on its rear wheel, and eric green begins beating the exhaust pipe with a hammer. about four pounds of gravel came out, they threw the bike down on it's front, rope jumps on, eric pushes him off, and jumps on his bike, obsolete makes the restart and i think placed one and two.
that's racing.....
and winning.
tex
i remember seeing roper wad a bunch of bikes just doin' the do!
f'ing g50's summersalting, etc.
my favorite was when he went off nhis around t9/10 into the gravel. there was a giant clusterfuck that occured then, red flagged, etc...
team obsolete run the bike back to their garage, hold the g50 up on its rear wheel, and eric green begins beating the exhaust pipe with a hammer. about four pounds of gravel came out, they threw the bike down on it's front, rope jumps on, eric pushes him off, and jumps on his bike, obsolete makes the restart and i think placed one and two.
that's racing.....
and winning.
tex
Well, they may not be "Racing" but they were swapping paint and at least 1 of the "Nortons" witha 57yr old rider binned it. And plenty of classic cars ate shit. As far as I could tell all the bikes and cars were "Real" period racers. Most with some history... At least according to "Jackie Stuart"... 
Cheers, A.D.
Cheers, A.D.
I can't speak to motorcycle road racing but after this summer's catastrophe at road america with SCCA there are a lot of owners who are skittish abotu racing their prize cars against replicas. In case you didn't hear about it this pic should give you the gist:
Most of there cars were real (the yello mustang was the Parnelli jones 1970 boss) and a total loss. What you cant see is the cobra buried under the pile up (a real cobra).
As for Team obsolete, I know a few of their ex-riders and they are all a bunch of great guys and all firecly comeptetive by their very nature but they do appreciate what they ride, it probably doesn't change how they ride because I doubt they even think about it when they are on the bike but it does make the owner (which is not always team obsolete) reconsider which races to enter and which to leave the bike in the paddock. There is more to racing than just the racers and there is a whole different side to it when you are racing a bike that Ago or Hailwood rode back in the dya verses racing a cb350 that was sold as a street bike and is easly replaceable.
I think a lot of owners consider Goodwood a "safe" track because 1) it is brand new, 2) it is an all vintage meet (versus a place like suzuka or IOM where rossi and hayden are weaving their way around you), 3) the corner workers are excellent (at least since there was that incident when one was killed a few years ago, they revamped the whole system). I'm sure there are a million other reasons but these are just off the top of my head, really it is a rare thing to see some real and some replica bikes and cars mix it up. As far as I know Goodwood is not part of any point series (at least it hasn;t been in the past) so that takes the pressure off the riders as well which is really what I meant by not a real race, there is a huge difference between racing for the sake of racing and racing for a win because you are 3 points out of 1st in the standings.
this is who i'll be accompanying to goodwood next year.
http://www.classicteamlotus.co.uk/Default.asp
they do cars for serious racers. yeah, and museums too. barber has the largest privately help collection of gp and f1 lotus race cars outside of the factory. but they get cars to rebuild from racing crashes all over the world. guys who seriously race the cars. and look at those prices. a 64 vette isnt even close. guys like sterling moss will never lose thier edge and will always push the limits once in the seat. they might not be as fast as they used to be, but for sure theyre seriously out there racing.
as for real or not, all of the cars have to have documention and a history. same with the bikes. but in the "open class" the fast guys run the modern manxs im pretty sure.
tex hit the nail on the head. the molnars and sommerfields arent "real". something putting out 70hp against a real period machine putting out 50 isnt a fair fight, but dont fool yourself, they are serious racebikes built specifically for that reason. put sheene, quail, and mooney on a racebike and see if any of them are holding back. not a chance. and i have the video to prove it. and dont even get started with the modern era guys. or how about tiff needel, moss, and gerry marshall. all those guys are going balls out to win. and it trickles up. being on the "track" at gunstock with roper, courts, and nicols and seeing them slide the rear makes you realize, these guys arent fucking around. and that wasnt supposed to be a real race either. and it goes for the cars too. there are plenty of bookoo hi $$$ vehicles that show up at louden for our vintage fest and those guys do some serious racing. so to think its not really a race isnt right. as john spinney said, "hey, theres a green flag and a checkered flag, sounds like a race to me"
and as far as your point goes, there are alot of races that arent point collecting events. macau is the first big one that comes to mind. thats put on by the tourist dept of macau and is probably the most dangerous road race in the world. the conditions are, in my opinion, way more dangerous than iom. that doesnt mean there arent guys trying to win. yeah, theres no pressure, but that doesnt stop fast guys from trying to beat each other. by your logic, only the first couple of places would want to win, when the fact is you are always trying to catch and beat the guy in front of you, and keep the guy behind you, behind you.
cb350, molnar manx, g50. a race is a race. dick manns bsa cartwheeling into t1 at daytona a few years ago is proof. that bike was completely destroyed. (i wonder if its back together yet) this isnt to say some bikes like the hailwood 250/6 arent special. they are, and to lose one would be a crime. but i think there are only a few bikes with that kind of prestige. the porcupine being one as an example. and you know the reason there arent more factory vintage hondas out there? because honda used to crush them at the end of the season. they would save one or maybe 2 for the museum, and crush the rest.
we race for a piece of plastic. we all do this for a piece of crappy plastic. unike you sitting in your garage, or basement, or shop, we not only build the bikes, we then proceed to drive hundreds, and in alot of cases, thousands of miles in a few days to race for a piece of plastic. yeah, maybe thier piece of plastic is nicer and more expensive, but its all relative. and people still crash, get killed, seriously injured, and fucked up for life. it just pisses me off when i hear people say, "its not a real race" you just dont know until you do it. i hear people say vintage racing isnt really racing and its not that dangerous blah blah blah... and they think we tool around on the track because we ride 40 year old bikes. yeah, i get a little defensive. the first thing that comes to mind is, hey, if its so easy, you do it. trust me, theyre racing out there. for real.
too bad you werent around to hear me talking to roper about what inspired me to start vintage racing a few weekends ago. (yeah mike, you really got me started, but seeing that picture of dave doing the sommersault into the guardrail and off the g50 at daytona really spoke to me for some reason)
jc
http://www.classicteamlotus.co.uk/Default.asp
they do cars for serious racers. yeah, and museums too. barber has the largest privately help collection of gp and f1 lotus race cars outside of the factory. but they get cars to rebuild from racing crashes all over the world. guys who seriously race the cars. and look at those prices. a 64 vette isnt even close. guys like sterling moss will never lose thier edge and will always push the limits once in the seat. they might not be as fast as they used to be, but for sure theyre seriously out there racing.
as for real or not, all of the cars have to have documention and a history. same with the bikes. but in the "open class" the fast guys run the modern manxs im pretty sure.
tex hit the nail on the head. the molnars and sommerfields arent "real". something putting out 70hp against a real period machine putting out 50 isnt a fair fight, but dont fool yourself, they are serious racebikes built specifically for that reason. put sheene, quail, and mooney on a racebike and see if any of them are holding back. not a chance. and i have the video to prove it. and dont even get started with the modern era guys. or how about tiff needel, moss, and gerry marshall. all those guys are going balls out to win. and it trickles up. being on the "track" at gunstock with roper, courts, and nicols and seeing them slide the rear makes you realize, these guys arent fucking around. and that wasnt supposed to be a real race either. and it goes for the cars too. there are plenty of bookoo hi $$$ vehicles that show up at louden for our vintage fest and those guys do some serious racing. so to think its not really a race isnt right. as john spinney said, "hey, theres a green flag and a checkered flag, sounds like a race to me"
and as far as your point goes, there are alot of races that arent point collecting events. macau is the first big one that comes to mind. thats put on by the tourist dept of macau and is probably the most dangerous road race in the world. the conditions are, in my opinion, way more dangerous than iom. that doesnt mean there arent guys trying to win. yeah, theres no pressure, but that doesnt stop fast guys from trying to beat each other. by your logic, only the first couple of places would want to win, when the fact is you are always trying to catch and beat the guy in front of you, and keep the guy behind you, behind you.
cb350, molnar manx, g50. a race is a race. dick manns bsa cartwheeling into t1 at daytona a few years ago is proof. that bike was completely destroyed. (i wonder if its back together yet) this isnt to say some bikes like the hailwood 250/6 arent special. they are, and to lose one would be a crime. but i think there are only a few bikes with that kind of prestige. the porcupine being one as an example. and you know the reason there arent more factory vintage hondas out there? because honda used to crush them at the end of the season. they would save one or maybe 2 for the museum, and crush the rest.
we race for a piece of plastic. we all do this for a piece of crappy plastic. unike you sitting in your garage, or basement, or shop, we not only build the bikes, we then proceed to drive hundreds, and in alot of cases, thousands of miles in a few days to race for a piece of plastic. yeah, maybe thier piece of plastic is nicer and more expensive, but its all relative. and people still crash, get killed, seriously injured, and fucked up for life. it just pisses me off when i hear people say, "its not a real race" you just dont know until you do it. i hear people say vintage racing isnt really racing and its not that dangerous blah blah blah... and they think we tool around on the track because we ride 40 year old bikes. yeah, i get a little defensive. the first thing that comes to mind is, hey, if its so easy, you do it. trust me, theyre racing out there. for real.
too bad you werent around to hear me talking to roper about what inspired me to start vintage racing a few weekends ago. (yeah mike, you really got me started, but seeing that picture of dave doing the sommersault into the guardrail and off the g50 at daytona really spoke to me for some reason)
jc
dude you get worked up too easily.
First off just because I don't road race motorcycles with you guys don't assume I haven't ever competeted in motorsports. In my life I have held both NHRA nad SCCA licenses for cars, and I have bracket raced motorcycles (until they shut down the local drag strip). In bracket racing at the smaller tracks there isn't even a piece of plastic for me to race for, I did it for fun - probably for the same reason you road race. With Drag racing cars the technology mooves too fast, the parts are too expensive and the payouts are small. When I started racing my Chevelle in 1994 a 12 second 1/4 mile was a really fast street car (BTW I did this with my only car, I didn't have the resources to put together a dedicated race car), the majority of street racers at that time were in the 12's to 13's, and only pure track cars like Superstock and A through C stock cars were faster (excluding the pro-stock, top fuel, top alcohol, etc... classes which didn't use my style of car) . Although I didn't have to travel further than jersey, if I couldn't borrow a tow truck (my father's suburban) and trailer (U-haul) I would drive my car to the track and hope nothing broke. When I used to street race, the payouts were bigger but according to the track bound snobs it wasn;t real racing. When I left street racing in 1999 the fastest street race cars were in the 9-10 second range and 12's weren;t cutting anymore for anything other than $50 races agains hondas and acuras.
SCCA Autocrosses are parking lot races and there is no vintage class. Often I competed in my own cars which were 60's iron and definatly not competitive with honda civics and bmws. I started borrowing friends cars from MGs to beat up honda civics. These were prepped race cars and once again competed for no money and no plastic (braggin righs - although some of the autocross meets did have cheap trophys). I couldn't afford to have more than the GTO I was fixing up my cb750 and a jeep I shared with my brother when the weather got cold. I had street bikes at the time but no race bikes. around 2000 I took the cb750 I had been riding and began bracketing it at westhampton. Thanks to years fo training with a christmas tree and the way bracket racing works my 70's iron was able to stay competetive with everything from harleys to hayabusas. Once again I rode my race bike to the track and hoped nothing broke. I bought my first dedicated race bike an old drag race prepped 1976 KH500 two stroke triple last year, just as they shut down westhampton.
I don't road race motorcycles (yet) because I have a built in handicap that drag racing accounted for: I'm 6'5" and 280lbs. However since I nolonger want to shoulder the expense of e-town which has gotten crazy with fees and tech since it became the only strip close to the NYC metro area. However 2006 is a new year so maybe I'll see you at the tracks. Who knows.
Maybe "really racing" was a poor choice of words, but I just don't think of Goodwood, which was originally set up as an exhibition race to bring a racing show back to the estate track as much of a "real deal" as a series, or grass roots style racing. There is just too much bullshit and politics involved (team owners, car/ bike owners, riders, etc...).
That being said I recant my "real racing" statement, and one day Joe maybe we'll meet in a bar and have a big laugh about it.
Edited by - Geeto67 on Dec 21 2005 2:00:31 PM
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655 Posts
Even though this discussion/argument probably doesn't need another opinion, I'll put another one in...just for fun.
On one hand, I've done some exhibitions in my time, and the one that comes to mind is Gunstock. It was arguably marketed as a 'race', but we the riders were told, "take it easy, it's just for show". That being said, it scared the shit out of me trying to ride at speed around that track. It is especially frightening in retrospect.
On the other hand, I feel like I can understand the "not real racing" comment due to my experience in racing modern and vintage bikes. Goodwood is a competition, but if you think guys like Barry Sheene and Freddie Spencer think of it as a 'real race' I believe you are mistaken. To them, riding old Manxs and G50s around Goodwood is like riding an XR100 in a parking lot for most of us. They are far more capable than the motorcycle is, and a lot of the time it probably looks like they're pushing really hard because the bike is struggling to keep up with them.
That's what I think.
Z
On one hand, I've done some exhibitions in my time, and the one that comes to mind is Gunstock. It was arguably marketed as a 'race', but we the riders were told, "take it easy, it's just for show". That being said, it scared the shit out of me trying to ride at speed around that track. It is especially frightening in retrospect.
On the other hand, I feel like I can understand the "not real racing" comment due to my experience in racing modern and vintage bikes. Goodwood is a competition, but if you think guys like Barry Sheene and Freddie Spencer think of it as a 'real race' I believe you are mistaken. To them, riding old Manxs and G50s around Goodwood is like riding an XR100 in a parking lot for most of us. They are far more capable than the motorcycle is, and a lot of the time it probably looks like they're pushing really hard because the bike is struggling to keep up with them.
That's what I think.
Z
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