Hey Ya'll...newbie needs advice!

quote:
Hey guys, I'm new to metrics...I've been into American V-twins for the last 5 years or so. Choppers and Customs mostly, anyway I recently got turned on to Cafe Racers, really dig the style and at the same time looking for something as a daily rider to get back and forth from work and scoot around the city. So I've decided I'm going to build a Cafe Racer for my daily rider. I want to use the Honda CB750 as a base, thinking about an early to late 70's model. So my question is there any certain model or year that is better then another year to build off of? Maybe some years have better handling then others or better drivetrain/engine then others? Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Ace

Click to expand...

Metrics are what you call new japanese crusiers. Old hondas are not metric bikes but are vintage bikes, like old bonnies and WLA harleys. Just call them soul machines. I mean, nobody goes around calling old triumphs witworths? right?

SOHC cb750s were made from 1969 to 1978. They rpoduced in the range fo 53-68hp depending on the year and were made in three basic models: the K (standard), the F (Supersport), and the A (Automatic, yes as in automatic transmission).

The 1969-1970 (K0) bikes are the lighest and were at one point considered the fastest. They made the cb750 reputation and their looks as a stocker are unbeatable. Unfortunatly these are usually the most expensive cb750s and they are somewhat fragile.

The 1971-1972 (K1, K2) fixed a lot of problems with the early bikes, and their look was a little sleeker. They still fetch a high price and are considered the last of the fast K bikes.

The 1973-76 K bikes (K3,K4, K5, K6) are probably the mose refined K bikes. Honda figured out that the cb750s fragile nature was due to the power output and lowered it to 58hp. Most good condition cb750s will make between 53-58 rwhp. The advantage is that they have the earlier bike's shape but rock solid reliability. I personally own a K5 and that bike is an anvil ( I also own a K3 with equal reliability). There are minor changes throughout the bikes but most of the k3-k6 bikes have a lot of parts changeover so spares are easily available. These are the engines you need if you are going to do an 836cc conversion.

the 1977-78 K bikes (K7, K8) are more refined. The bike got heavier, the power output went up and the addition of a 630 chain made the bike less prone to breakage. Most people think these are the ulgy cb750s and therefore they sell for the least amount and people like to chop them up. Anything that makes these porkers lighter is a blessing

In 1975 honda introduced the SS (F bike). All F bikes have a read disc brake instead of a rear drum. The 75-76 (F0, F1) was basically a K bike with better carbs, a rear disc and bodywork more like a kawasaki triple or suzuki gs with a tailsection and stepped seat. These are the only cb750 hondas to use a rear disc on spoke rims so lots of guys building cafe bikes look for these rearends. The 1977-78 F2s, saw a lot of improvements. The engine hp was boosted and the bikes are as fast if not faster than the early cb750s. They got mag wheels and the ability to run tubless tires, and also the best brakes ever put on a SOHC 750 (dual disc up front, rear single disc). All F bikes use a 4 into 1 exhaust (instead of the K bikes 4 into 4) which helped ground clearance but you still run out of room on the right side and the mufflers are heavy.

The A bikes are hondamatics (1976-78). They have no clutch or tach and the brakes are on the handlebars (one is a parking brake). They have the strongest bottom ends and a lot of cb750 racers used to use the A cranks in K cases to build strong race motors. They come with aluminum rims on the stock cb750 hubs (a GW part bin raid) so they make excellent parts bikes for a cafe racer looking for DID aluminum rims on the cheap. Other than the novelty factor they really aren't that cool and are probably the heaviest cb750. I had a friend who had a 900cc kit in a hondamatic and that bike was cool because it did burnouts, holeshots, and chirped when it shifted. Honda made the automatic a 400 in 1979 because the cb750 was too heavy for the women who wanted to ride it.

A couple of sites to check out:

www.sohc4.us
www.hondachopper.com
www.cyclexchange.net
www.airtech-streamlining.com

there are tons others but this will get you started. the SOHC forum has a parts list thread and can tell you where to get the best gear for the bike.

I'm sure i missed a ton of info so feel free to chime in.

Don't rule out the DOHC supersports of 1979-1982. They can be had in 750, 900, and 1100 cc flavors, have great brakes and bodywork modeled after the BOL D'Or endurance racers. They make 80-100 hp and are every bit as reliable as the SOHCs provided you keep up on the maintenance. I own a 1979 750 and a 1982 900 and they really the best of both worlds, vintage riding expirence with modern brakes and speed.

check out www.cb1100f.net




Edited by - Geeto67 on May 15 2006 4:03:47 PM

quote:
javascript:insertsmilie('<img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle>');
javascript:insertsmilie('<img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle>');

Yes sir; What about a GS1000 Zuki,I'm fixing one,rebuild from

skratch...

Sincerely Hellmopperjavascript:insertsmilie('<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>');
javascript:insertsmilie('<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>');

Gla moppedist...

Click to expand...

The zook GS 1000 is an awsome bike. Very fast. The problem with the GS1000 is that their prices have eclipsed those of the cb750, espically if you have one of the aluminum swingarm bikes. The aluminum swingarm is a direct swap in for many other bikes so a lot of these zooks bit the dust so their swingarms could go into kzs and h1s back in the day, which makes them kinda rare now.

However the first GS750s (1976-1978) are some of the best bargains there are. Faster than the cb750s and as fast as the kz900s, people can't seem to give these bikes away. I have a 77 in my backyard that runs and at $300 I have had no takers.

The kawasaki kz900s are also awsome 70's jap superbikes. The unfortunate thing is like the kawi triples, the z1 and kz900 have hit the stratosphere on prices. The aftermarket is burgeoning for these bikes and the engines with really big bores are still used in drag racing. Unfortunatly the kz900 and kz1000 are surronded by a lot of plodding bikes in the kz line like the kz650 and 750 twins (boat anchors, the kz750 four however is a pretty decent bike).

quote:
Just my 2cents but to me Honda parts seem to cost more.
I have a 84 FJ 1100 and a 74 Suzuki t500 and i swear i get sticker shock any time i buy a Honda part.
Could just be me snorting to much chain lube


84 FJ110
77 CB50 Cafe bike now
76 parts bike
74 Suzuki t500 soon to be on the road

Click to expand...

Overall My 71 t500 is actually more expensive in parts than a cb750, and there are less new parts for it. If you think cb750 parts are expensive, you should see what kawasaki triple parts are doing these days. All of the 70's two strokes seem to cost more than OEM honda parts.

That being said, buying stuff from honda for a cb750 is expensive, but there are aftermarket alternatives.

quote:I'm fixin to buy a cb750 in the next month or so and I've been hunting quite a bit. I've noticed that the prices can varry significantly. I know there's probably no good answer to the question, but what is a reasonable price I should be looking for in my first cb750? What's considered a good deal?

Click to expand...

It all depends on what you want.

The best stock looks for your dollar go with a 73-76 K bike and expect to pay between $800 and $2500 for running examples depending on condition (museum perfect can get as high as $5K).

For the best performance for your dollar buy a 77-78 supersport and expect to pay between $600 and $1500 for running examples ($2000 if they are really nice).

For the cheapest motor and frame with no intention to modify the engine internals buy a 77-78 K bike and expect to pay between $500 to $1500 for good running clean bikes (If you are close I know a freshly painted one for $1500 and the bike is really nice).

For the best resale value for a stocker get an early bike K0, K1, K2 and expect to pay a couple of grand for clean running bikes.

the NADA website can give you their take on prices too and it is the standard dealers go by. www.nada.com

They list my 75 K bike as $1875 for the average top value for a nice one. But the market can be higher or lower depending on a lot of factors, eg, I have been offered over $2K for my cb750 and my bike is really only between good and very good and I have seen a museum quality K% sell for $5K on ebay. Whenever I am selling a bike I try to get the nada price plus 30%, whenever I am buying if I got the NADA price I consider it a deal (and if I got it for less all the better).

I consider NADA slightly inaccurate because it tends to be a little selfserving towards dealers and also because the data they compile from is last years data and not real time. However if you are insuring a bike for a value (like theft) most insurance companies defer to the NADA value (you can negotiate with them btw as to the value...it is called an agreed value policy and has to be updated every year)

quote:

I knew it was a Supersport from a vintage add but had been looking for that missing letter and was coming up short. ( i would have guessed that it was a S for SuperSport-and that would have been wrong)

Click to expand...

Honda, years ago used to produce a book that was a spotters guide for the dealers. It not only listed what vin numbers constituted what models but how to spot parts from different years (like if someone put a 1978 cb750 K8 gearbox in a K0 bike). It also cross referenced common service items. They produced this book from the 1960's until the mid 1990s. Only dealers got them and since they were updated every year most threw out their old ones. I only know a few people that still have these books and they are not parting with them for anything. You don't even see them in ebay. In the mid 1990's honda went computerized with their parts fiches so it no longer became necessary to have a book. Still the information is still being compiled and is now published by helm inc, makers of auto and motorcycle manuals. their version of the book retails for $33 and seems to have all the same info that the old books had, although I have not yet seen one.

That being said, honda uses certain standards in lettering their bikes. Standard models are usually denoted as "K" bikes, Supersports are "F", Automatics are "A", crusier or chopper style bikes are "C", and Some Twins are "T". There are many exceptions to this as the cb350k3 is a supersport but carries a K designation, and a cb350F is not a supersport (the F stands for Four cylinder). Starting the the 1980s thr "R" or "RR" designation was used for race bikes like the VFR1000R (the VFR1000F being the sport touring model). Honde still uses some of these designations today as the CBR600s have progressed form F1, F2, F3, and currently the F4i (which is being phased out for the cbr600R and 600RR).

The prefix letters are interesting too. A lot of people think that the CB designation was meant to stand for "City bike" or soemthing to that effect. In actuality it was used to describe chassis variants on in house design mules (some being only sketches). Starting with AA, honda ran through most of the alphabet (AA, AB, AC...BA, BB, BC...etc) until they got to CA. The CA prefix accompined pressed frame motorcycles from 92ccs to 305 ccs. When honda began build a second chassis variant of their existing engines using tube frames tey called them "CB". When they started build scramblers they adopted "CL", these were mostly for assembly line use as the bikes had their own names they sold under (Dream, Superhawk, Scrambler). By the mid 1960s the CB had become an identifier for any tube frame street bike (Dirt bikes were originally XL models). Honda originally used the "RC" designation for their race bikes But occasionally used "CR" as well (although CR was just to designate a bike that could not be used on road and came to replace the XL prefix for dirt bikes when they started using XL for the enduros).Honda began using NSR for their race and street bikes in the 1980s and began using RC for street bikes starting with the RC30. Honda continues to use the "CB" identifier even today in the CBR 600 and 1000 and the CB900F (the honda 919) and cb1000 ("the big one"). In japan honda continues to make a cb750 based on the nighthawk but looking like the DOHC cb750F of 1979-1982. This is just a breif summary of what my research turned up on these prefixes so far, unfortunatly I abandoned following throw as to why these designations were chosen and evolved with the models when honda said they didn't want to waist their time helping me.

So there is my fill of useless knowledge for today.

quote:
Hey Geeto it just so happens that there is a GS750s around me for sale.

What is the cafe ability of that bike? Does it outperform the cb750?

Thanks

Click to expand...

It depends on the year. The GS750 was produced in response to the cb750 and the kz900. Until 1977 suzuki's mainstream product line had been two stroke street bikes. The 1976/77 (realeased early 76 as a 77 model) made about 68-70 hp which was a few more ponies than the cb and about 2 less than the z1. The bike was approximatley 505 lbs, 42 lbs lighter than the z1 and the same weight as a comparable year cb750. It also had a read disc brake, something honda had just started to expirement with. The chassis design was a clean sheet design and what is astounding it that it is physically bigger than a comparable cb750 despite weighing a pound less (according to cycle's test from 77). As far as power delivery the chassis really does a great job of getting it to the ground and it is smooth, the cb750 by 77 was an aging design and really doesn't have the same kind of motor feel despite making similar power. When honda introduced it's dual cam in 1979 the gs was the aging design, but suzuki came out with the 16 valve motor in 1980 and once again trumped honda (not by much - honda made more hp but was heavier). By 1979 you also had the GS1000/1100 (what would eventually become the GSX) which were screamers and a little more reliable than honda's cb1100F.

As for cafe-ability, although the aftermarket is not as great as the cb750 there are more than enough parts to build a competent cafe racer. The GS series bike is really popular in drag racing so there are decent speed parts for it. Also suzuki made an 8 valve 850cc crusier which you can put the whole top end (pistons, head) on your 750 for a few extra ponies. You can get rearsets, clipons etc for the bike, and there companys making fibreglass tanks and seats to be used in drag racing. www.TheGSresources.com should help answer any questions you would have about the model and there are plenty of bikes to look at in the gallery. Do a search around the site as I remember somebody asking your same question and getting pics back as a reply.

I personally have decided to fix up the gs750 I own instead of sell it because I want to do more than a 20 minute ride camparison (my friend lent me his 78 gs750 for 20 minutes and that is all the ride time I have on the bike).

The slug, do you mean the difference between 76 and 77? I'm not sure what your post means.

quote:
Hey Geeto it just so happens that there is a GS750s around me for sale.

What is the cafe ability of that bike? Does it outperform the cb750?

Thanks

Click to expand...

It depends on the year. The GS750 was produced in response to the cb750 and the kz900. Until 1977 suzuki's mainstream product line had been two stroke street bikes. The 1976/77 (realeased early 76 as a 77 model) made about 68-70 hp which was a few more ponies than the cb and about 2 less than the z1. The bike was approximatley 505 lbs, 42 lbs lighter than the z1 and the same weight as a comparable year cb750. It also had a read disc brake, something honda had just started to expirement with. The chassis design was a clean sheet design and what is astounding it that it is physically bigger than a comparable cb750 despite weighing a pound less (according to cycle's test from 77). As far as power delivery the chassis really does a great job of getting it to the ground and it is smooth, the cb750 by 77 was an aging design and really doesn't have the same kind of motor feel despite making similar power. When honda introduced it's dual cam in 1979 the gs was the aging design, but suzuki came out with the 16 valve motor in 1980 and once again trumped honda (not by much - honda made more hp but was heavier). By 1979 you also had the GS1000/1100 (what would eventually become the GSX) which were screamers and a little more reliable than honda's cb1100F.

As for cafe-ability, although the aftermarket is not as great as the cb750 there are more than enough parts to build a competent cafe racer. The GS series bike is really popular in drag racing so there are decent speed parts for it. Also suzuki made an 8 valve 850cc crusier which you can put the whole top end (pistons, head) on your 750 for a few extra ponies. You can get rearsets, clipons etc for the bike, and there companys making fibreglass tanks and seats to be used in drag racing. www.TheGSresources.com should help answer any questions you would have about the model and there are plenty of bikes to look at in the gallery. Do a search around the site as I remember somebody asking your same question and getting pics back as a reply.

I personally have decided to fix up the gs750 I own instead of sell it because I want to do more than a 20 minute ride camparison (my friend lent me his 78 gs750 for 20 minutes and that is all the ride time I have on the bike).

The slug, do you mean the difference between 76 and 77? I'm not sure what your post means.

quote:
Wonderful reply! Thank you!


::EDIT:: what do you think about the 78'GS750?


Edited by - Hoshnasi on Aug 16 2006 2:02:42 PM

Click to expand...

which model? The 1978 GS 750 is still an early GS750. The E model was available with a wide comfy stepped seat, other models had a rather low flat seat. I can only seem to find 78 wide stepped seats for my 77 low seat model to replace the rotted out seat pan on my bike. What I like about the 78 is it is the same smooth powerful motor and chassis that made the 77 a success but it should have cast wheels (depending on the model) and twin front disc brakes instead of the single disc that early 77s had. Some models had spokes (the no letter model) and if you really want you can probably find a set and switch back, although the gs wheels are a very unique snowflake cast wheel that look just like the old lester or henry abe snowflake. When buying a 78 - make sure the brakes work, the mastercylinder doesn't leak, and the title is clear and available.


This is a 78 750 no letter model (with nonstock paint) note the spoked rims and flat low seat:



This is a D model (again nonstock paint) Note the mags:



This is an E model (stock paint) note the stepped seat and mags:



here is a cafe racer one that someone has been working on:

Has low bars a cafe style fairing and a reuposltered bumstop seat on the stock pan. looks pretty good for low buck

Edited by - geeto67 on Aug 17 2006 10:48:22 AM

quote:
Wonderful reply! Thank you!


::EDIT:: what do you think about the 78'GS750?


Edited by - Hoshnasi on Aug 16 2006 2:02:42 PM

Click to expand...

which model? The 1978 GS 750 is still an early GS750. The E model was available with a wide comfy stepped seat, other models had a rather low flat seat. I can only seem to find 78 wide stepped seats for my 77 low seat model to replace the rotted out seat pan on my bike. What I like about the 78 is it is the same smooth powerful motor and chassis that made the 77 a success but it should have cast wheels (depending on the model) and twin front disc brakes instead of the single disc that early 77s had. Some models had spokes (the no letter model) and if you really want you can probably find a set and switch back, although the gs wheels are a very unique snowflake cast wheel that look just like the old lester or henry abe snowflake. When buying a 78 - make sure the brakes work, the mastercylinder doesn't leak, and the title is clear and available.


This is a 78 750 no letter model (with nonstock paint) note the spoked rims and flat low seat:



This is a D model (again nonstock paint) Note the mags:



This is an E model (stock paint) note the stepped seat and mags:



here is a cafe racer one that someone has been working on:

Has low bars a cafe style fairing and a reuposltered bumstop seat on the stock pan. looks pretty good for low buck

Edited by - geeto67 on Aug 17 2006 10:48:22 AM