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quote:Originally posted by coreyjdl

geeto? so why should anyone <s> do i </s>have to be that kids parent? other than his actual parents.

and let alone the fact that i'm not much older than he is.

i think i did my job as an advisor in that while i didn't encourage him to get it. and on every corner i advised him to stick with the 900 vulcan, both financially and in order to learn to ride. i told him and his mother straight that he doesn't know how to ride it...

but ultimately i sell bikes.. and someone bought one.

thinking for someone who may or may not be capable on their own is not my job. and quite frankly isn't a bartenders job either.
well from a libertarin standpoint if we all took a more interested standpoint in the protection of our fellow man, then there would be less need for the government to the the job for us in the form of nanny laws.

Whether you like to rationalize it any way you think works or not however there comes to a moral decision. And in this case you made a bad moral decision because in the end you made the sale instead of doing something you knew had a high probability of a bad outcome and is generally regarded as irresponsible by society. Sure you are not this kids parent but if you think his behavior doesn't effect you in the long run then don't bitch when your local laws change to affect your business. The bottom line is we are all members of the same society and like it or not we should all look out for each other in some small way. Sure you could say well he would just go somewhere else and buy it and them someone else gets the commission, but you know what? then he would have the guilt of that kid on his hands instead of yours.

I don't think you are inherently a bad person, but I do think you owe more responsibility to this situation than you think you do. in the end what is your guilty feeling worth? these are the tough decisions that you are going to learn as you go through life youngin
 

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So a kid comes into a bike shop with his mum and buys a bike far too powerful for him to handle. The dealer tells both the kid and his mum this, but they don't listen to him - and buy the bike.

So now it's the dealers fault that he's wrecked it?

You're shitting me, right?
 

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darwin at work ladies and gentlemen, darwin at work.


seriously, we have LAMS laws here in australia (most states anyway)
LAMS laws make it power to weight ratio UP to 660cc (which actually knocks out a few 250cc bikes [nsr, rgv, rs and a few others]

Learner Assisted Motorcycle Scheme or some shit like that. i went up from my 1988 Honda CBR250R (a 250cc 4 cyclinder 4 stroke, off the factory floor, had a top speed of 200kmh) to a 2006 ZX-6R. and christ almighty, there is no f*cking way a person new to road bikes could safely handle my bike, let alone a zx-14.
 

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quote:Originally posted by shady_knife

darwin at work ladies and gentlemen, darwin at work.
not really. darwin failed here.

while i tend to have little sympathy for individuals who fail to listen, i still believe in giving people a 2nd chance. hopefully this kid learns and will become a better individual from it.

I know I have made stupid decisions (car not bike) that thankfully didn't result in anything more than just angry skid marks on the tarmac.
I am now a much wiser (and safer) individual as a result.
 

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As a part-time builder and occasional seller of my builds, I'm more selective on who I sell my builds off to.
 

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quote:Originally posted by hillsy

So a kid comes into a bike shop with his mum and buys a bike far too powerful for him to handle. The dealer tells both the kid and his mum this, but they don't listen to him - and buy the bike.

So now it's the dealers fault that he's wrecked it?

You're shitting me, right?
No you are oversimplifying. "fault" isn't as black and white as you put it, it is more varying degrees depending on your involvement. Were this to end in a lawsuit that is exactly what a jury would be deciding how much (in a number percentage) at fault everybody who contributed to this circumstance would be.

from a legal perspective (and not constitution legal advice in any way) I don't see the dealer being at fault for anything, but from a moral and sociological perspective yes there is something the dealer did that contributed to this particular outcome that could be considered irresponsible. I think it shows best that the tried to warn the kid so they knew there was an inherent stupidity to selling this kid the bike.

There is a lot of talk going around here about graduated license structures, and really if you think about it the net outcome is the same except it is not the government telling the dealer don't sell the kid the bike. I don't like the graduated license systems because I think sometimes operating too small a motor vehicle in a high traffic American city can be just as dangerous, but the net effect is to force the dealer not to sell the bike and come up with other product, as it stands now every dealer I have been in doesn't push the smaller product because it costs less.

If you are going to have the seller's livelihood tied up in the sale of the bike, the only way to balance that out is to legally make him partially responsible for the rider outcome. It will never happen in this country when it comes to motorcycles, but it would be nice. There are plenty of other things we already do this for in our country (bars, restaurants, toy stores, etc) what is one more thing. It is time we stopped the pass the buck mentality and really took responsibility for our actions.

Until then I guess we will have to constantly have to put our motorcycle sales people in the unenviable position of making a living or making a smart decision.
 

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And just to be clear corey, I am sorry that this is one of those situations in America where good behavior is punished (with no sale) and bad behavior is rewarded (with a sale). It is no reflection on you as a person, this is a hard decision for anybody to make. I have worked in many shops and there are shops that genuinely feel bad when someone they sold something to gets hurt or killed, and then there are shops where they have a good laugh about the whole thing and call the kid a jackass. Don't be part of that latter mentality.
 

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I think we are all going a little overboard on this. I'm a firm believer in the market forces taking care of this problem to a certain extent. I know for a fact - if I was 21 and wanted to buy a high powered rice rocket that the insurance cost would be astronomical. This doesn't stop someone from showing up with a fist full of money and doing the deal anyways - at least it puts a limiting factor on most of the kids. For the rest - let's just say it's natures way of limiting the gene pool.
 

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if corey didn't sell him the bike, someone else was going to.

that kid had made up his mind on what bike he wanted even before he walked in the door.

i'm glad that you recommended the vulcan to him....but in the end he got what he wanted, you made the sale, and since he didn't die, you taught him and his mom a pretty good lesson, which is...the guy on the other side of the desk/counter in a dealership usually has a pretty good fricken idea on what's up!

tex
 

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quote:Originally posted by texmawby

if corey didn't sell him the bike, someone else was going to.
so that makes it alright then? as a moral argument this has all the appeal of a 5lb bag of diarrhea. The basic premise of this is that as long as someone else is going to act irresponsibly in your place it is ok for you to act irresponsibly and reap the rewards.
 

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Yes, it makes it ok. He warned him. He warned his parent. They chose to ignore the warnings. Their fault. Now their kid is hurt and they're out a lot money at a high interest rate.

At least Corey gave him a helmet. Probably saved the kids life.

I can go to the drug store and buy 10 things of cough syrup, drink them all, and die. I can go to the liquor store and buy a few bottles of grain alcohol, drink it, and die. It wouldn't be the drug store's fault, or the liquor store's fault. It would be my fault, even though the two stores made money off of my bad decision.

I hate nanny laws because it stops people from thinking. It gets people into the mentality of "its not illegal so it must be safe." People do stupid things all day, every day. They should have to pay for the consequences of their actions.

I also think its stupid to hold bars legally responsible for their patrons being drunk.
 

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Yes, it makes it ok. He warned him. He warned his parent. They chose to ignore the warnings. Their fault. Now their kid is hurt and they're out a lot money at a high interest rate.

At least Corey gave him a helmet. Probably saved the kids life.

I can go to the drug store and buy 10 things of cough syrup, drink them all, and die. I can go to the liquor store and buy a few bottles of grain alcohol, drink it, and die. It wouldn't be the drug store's fault, or the liquor store's fault. It would be my fault, even though the two stores made money off of my bad decision.

I hate nanny laws because it stops people from thinking. It gets people into the mentality of "its not illegal so it must be safe." People do stupid things all day, every day. They should have to pay for the consequences of their actions.

I also think its stupid to hold bars legally responsible for their patrons being drunk.
 

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quote:Originally posted by Geeto67

quote:Originally posted by texmawby

if corey didn't sell him the bike, someone else was going to.
so that makes it alright then? as a moral argument this has all the appeal of a 5lb bag of diarrhea. The basic premise of this is that as long as someone else is going to act irresponsibly in your place it is ok for you to act irresponsibly and reap the rewards.
i don't give two shits if this appeals to you morally. if i was in corey's shoes i would have done the same damn thing. warn the kid, warn the parent, advise them on a different 1st bike, but in the end after all my council they wanted the ZX14.....damn right they would have gotten the ZX14. i then would have sold him the best full face helmet he could afford, and i would have dressed him head to toe in REV'IT!, the best and safest motorcycle apparel in the world.

tex
 

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quote:Originally posted by Geeto67

quote:Originally posted by texmawby

if corey didn't sell him the bike, someone else was going to.
so that makes it alright then? as a moral argument this has all the appeal of a 5lb bag of diarrhea. The basic premise of this is that as long as someone else is going to act irresponsibly in your place it is ok for you to act irresponsibly and reap the rewards.
i don't give two shits if this appeals to you morally. if i was in corey's shoes i would have done the same damn thing. warn the kid, warn the parent, advise them on a different 1st bike, but in the end after all my council they wanted the ZX14.....damn right they would have gotten the ZX14. i then would have sold him the best full face helmet he could afford, and i would have dressed him head to toe in REV'IT!, the best and safest motorcycle apparel in the world.

tex
 

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always the shill. :p

The point is tex, and knowing you you would have also felt badly when the kid got hurt. And my point is why put yourself through that for a sale? your bad feelings about this are worth the commission? At the end of the day it stops and starts at the dealer, and really this just illustrates why you are in sales and I am not. If I sold that kid that bike I would loose a lot of sleep over it. To me the commission isn't worth loss of sleep.
 

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always the shill. :p

The point is tex, and knowing you you would have also felt badly when the kid got hurt. And my point is why put yourself through that for a sale? your bad feelings about this are worth the commission? At the end of the day it stops and starts at the dealer, and really this just illustrates why you are in sales and I am not. If I sold that kid that bike I would loose a lot of sleep over it. To me the commission isn't worth loss of sleep.
 

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all i can do is educate, but if the kid is determined to do it (in this case he was....), I am NEVER going to lose a sale to make a competing dealer stronger.

and yes, i know that was a shameless plug. i laughed the entire time i typed it! good on you to notice it first!

cheers,

texy
 

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all i can do is educate, but if the kid is determined to do it (in this case he was....), I am NEVER going to lose a sale to make a competing dealer stronger.

and yes, i know that was a shameless plug. i laughed the entire time i typed it! good on you to notice it first!

cheers,

texy
 
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