[Matt N]

alright, ive been messing with the wiring for a bit now on my reserrected 75 Cb360. Ive decided to go with a small SLA battery, in an effort to keep anything i dont HAVE TO HAVE off the bike, and what i do need to keep as small and hidden as possible. I actually originally wanted to run a capacitor instead of a battery, and i still have it, but im not sure if it can work how i need it to.

So for the questions...
Since im no longer using the starter, i can remove the starter solenoid correct? Sounds obvious but hey. [] If so where does the positive off the battery hook to?

How does a bike using a capacitor get wired? In that case it seems more could be removed, such as the rectifier, etc.

Im trying to compromise between a clean, lean bike, and actual function.

*Possibly an easier question to answer. On a kickstart bike, as far as electrical, what must i have to run the bike, and utilize lights/signals etc?*

sorry if the above is hard to follow, im in a weird frame of mind right now. haha

 

[Judeyramone]

I have a smaller than stock SLA battery that I bought for my cb350. I think it cost me around $25. From what I've read, eliminating the battery on either of these bikes (cb360 & cb350 use the same battery) is not really possible. I think your best bet is to just go with a smaller battery. I'll try to find out what it is I bought, and post it here in the next day or so.

 

[HackAsaw]

doesn't this bike have a permanent magnet AC alternator?

one that doesn't require it's field to be excited?

I am sure that is the case and if so, it should be nothing more than a cake walk to run it batteryless


However, I've never done it but cannot begin to imagine why it wouldn't be possible and even easy

so if it really can't be done, I'd be glad to be educated about why not

tell me if the alternator output is single or three phase, I have a CB350 alt in my shop but haven't looked at it in a while

ok I have to go over and lock up anyhow, I'll look and get back to you

what I'd do if it were my bike, is strip the entire wiring harness and run my own bare bones harness with just the wires that are needed for everything to work

yeah you can get shed of the starter solenoid and I suppose you could bolt the terminal ends together to supply your main power

you must keep a rectifier and my preference is to get a solid state combined rectifier/regulator unit and ditch all the old stuff

the rectifier converts the AC into DC

the regulator clips the DC at a preset voltage level, around 14 volts

 

[shortshift]

Hey there, I've been planning on using one of these to run without a battery:

http://www.radsportphoto.de/

Maybe it could work for your bike?

 

[kenessex]

I am running a battery eliminator on my CB350 race bike. It is the Bat-Pac I got off e-bay. It works good except when I tried to run the lights for a street ride. I never bothered to try and figure it out since it is a race bike.
Ken

 

[catboy]

trying to eliminate a battery altogether on a street bike, while certainly trick, seems to be WAY more trouble than it's worth in my opinion. plus, i think you need one for a 360.

 

[Matt N]

alright, moving on with the battery...
can someone clarify or expound on bypassing the starter solenoid/relay, and tell me what goes where?

heres what im looking at:

Ive got the Positive post (which to my understanding is the one that is bare), the Negative post(again, i think), which has two prong plug to the rectifier and fue box, and another short cable (Maybe the battery ground?), and then the small black and yellow/red wires.

can some one tell me how to hook this battery up?
Thanks for all the help, and HackAsaw im still curious to see what you come up with.

 

[Matt N]

wow...did i have that all backwards and confused. lol it didnt click til a bit ago that there isnt a ground post on the coil, and that one side is positive from the battery and the other the power wire for the starter. doh!

anywho i got it all sorted out, now im searching for the gremlin thats keepin me from getting spark. i think i have it narrowed down to the condenser though. the points checked out ok. my multimeter stopped working so i couldnt check the coils out, but im hoping they arent the culprit. ill have to go get a meter and see...

sorry for my stupidity running all through this thread. its been a crazy week.

 

[HackAsaw]

sorry for the duplicate guys

 

[HackAsaw]

quote:Originally posted by HackAsaw

Ok, I'll post up some pix and offer a few of my opinions. Put a buck fiddy with it and get yourself a cup of coffee maybe.

here we have a mess of alternators....... I'm an alternator kinda guy if you didn't know.

the one closest to you is a CB350 unit...... unless I've gone totally senile

possible I suppose

now the one closest to you is a 180 watt single phase Lucas unit

damned fine alternator..... can't say much for any of the English factory wiring but the charging system components are bullet proof

the one behind the CB is an Italian alternator just a few ticks under 400 watts

really damned fine alternator

the one to the left of it is a 150 watt alternator

notice how much physically smaller all of these units are than the CB350 unit

now the standard Lucas alternator is a 135 watt unit and it will indeed run point ignition and DOT lights without a battery

yes the lights go brown at idle and you have to set the idle up so it doesn't die

and it's much more reliable with 5 ohm ignition coils

The 180 watt unit will do it no problem but you'll still have lights dimming and flickering a bit at idle

Note: the three phase Lucas units aren't really great for batteryless running simply because they don't have a high enough peak voltage at slow speed to make the ignition happy....... even though once running they do put out a bit more juice at idle speeds than the single phase units

Now the 150 and 375ish watt small units...... they will do it and the big one (single phase and very peaky) will do it with 3 ohm coils, electronic ignition, and H4 headlight

ask me how I know

I also have one of these 180 watt Lucas alternators on one of my HD's and it runs DOT (not so legal) high wattage headlights but the ignition is fired by a Fairbanks Morse magneto.... but I am sure it would light off points ignition too even if I had to run legal bulbs

I have one of the big single phase units on another HD and it lights off electronic ignition and powers non-DOT legal lights as well, LEDs in the rear though

glad to show you if you care to see

sooooooooo....... I don't know what the output of this CB unit is....... I just recall keeping it thinking it looked like it had potential

but if people who have tried have decided it just isn't enough to run ignition and lights

well Honda dropped the ball and if I was doing one........ I'd stuff a good alternator in one a

ny of these shown in these pix are smaller so I know they could be made to go without having to get too kinky with cases and such

but certainly I can see that it could be run batteryless

by simply running the output to a rectifier and then the B+ to a stack of sinked diodes to regulate or clip

or you could get fancier and build a proper regulator

less than ten bucks plus time spent

but I cannot see any reason why a Podtronics or Tympanium/Sparx unit wouldn't handle both rectification and regulation just fine

do any of you know the rated output of the CB alternator?

what coils (ohms) do they use stock?

 

[chrisf]

This is a bare bones wiring diagram I'm using on my CB360.

These are the batteries I'm using. I buy them through a supplier here at work. I think the street price is $20 each. I used this setup on my CL350 with no problems. I run LEDs in my taillights to keep the draw down. However, they also worked fine with regular lights.

Excuse the big pics. It's how I roll...

--Chris

 

[chrisf]

Also, I always just use an automotive-type relay. These are $5 from RadioShack and are much more compact, lighter and easier to understand than the HUGE starter relay. I use these on kick only bikes. You can see it in the picture above. It's the square bit with the four prongs.

--Chris

 

[HackAsaw]

if the 30 am fuse comes even halfway close to being needed for that barebones setup......... you must be running some ignition coils that would eat a set of points really fast...... and non-DOT legal Headlight (like 100 watts)

and that alternator truly has to put out some amazing juice....... and I just don't see it being anything like that potent

now these two things, as well as the huge physical size of the CB alternator...... and see my post above****

give me good reason to question those who state the CB350 alternator won't run batteryless

now for the third thing

the Bosch (they rock when actually required) or any type main relay is simply not needed

just one more part to fail

plenty of good motorcycle ignition switches will handle 20+ amps and the consumers I see don't even come close

so you could surely make that smart harness even more bare bones and not lose any sleep

fourthly.......... if that 30 amp fuse is actually needed........ the 16 ga wire is very very undersized

my 180 watt bike has not even a fuse and has been thru three sets of tires with nary a single electrical hiccup

and my nearly 400 watt bike certainly has no relay

not trying to argue with anyone

but somebody please tell me the max output of the CB alternator and if anyone has ever measured, what does it put out at idle speed?

does anyone know if that single phase CB350 unit is Delta or Y wound?

thanks guys for sharing that and please do not take offense to my opinions/observations

I'm not going to qualify them with my credentials and such but I suppose I can if needed














****I don't think that, because of the CB stator windings, it will come close to matching the smaller nearly 400 watt Italian unit but I do think it should be right there with or better than the 180 watt Lucas unit........ and that is surely enough..... but if you are trying battery-less operating under the myth you need a main relay and that the lights won't dim at normal idle..... I can understand why most would claim it's not possible or viable. I've even read others state the CB never had enough alternator when brand new, that's horse pucky and also read they can't take having their throttles pinned to the stop and rolling down the superslab. My experience having owned and beaten many.... horse pucky to that too.

 

[HackAsaw]

and another thing I'd suggest is that the permanent magnet rotors used in all of this type alternator I am aware of

do indeed lose strength thru the years and can be made worthless by storing without ferrous metal clamshells, impact, or excessive heat

400 degrees with kill one dead and probably less

I don't know what type magnets the Japanese use but the Germans seem to use the best I've seen in vintage bikes

they last a long time but after 50 or so more years, they too get tired

the Brits used the crappiest ones and I've seen more than I can count that were weak as puppy piss after less than 20 years

so on many of these old bikes, a new rotor or simply a regauss

will bring back plenty of juice to them as long as the stators aren't shot

just some misc rambling........ feel free to chime in and tell me enough already!

btw...... some units have Neo Di Rare earth magnets...... and when having this discussion the very same thoughts should be applied to permanent magnet magnetos too

I have three bikes with Neo Di magnetos........ talk about stopping your heart and reliably kick starting at huge plug gaps......

they will flat out do it if they are mated with a stout enough stator

 

[chrisf]

I'm just running the motor, headlight, bright headlight and two LED bulbs. You think I should tone down the 30 amp fuse?

My impression was that the guy (or gal) wanted to lose the battery for aesthetic reasons. If that was the case, my three little battery solutions will work fine. If he (or she) really wanted to, I suppose swapping generators around would be a solution. But will is it worth it?

--Chris

 

[Matt N]

thanks for all the input fellas.

chris, thanks for the diagram, i may just put it to some use later on. i really like your setup, much for the fact its all hidden and secure. I opted for a bigger single battery because ive been reading about others needing a minimum of 6ah and yada yada. and i never thought of daisy chaining them either. So ive got a 12v5ah battery measuring 4"x3.5"x2.5". Theres no super place for me to try and hide it, but as long as the area behind the previous side covers isnt cluttered, ill be happy...oh yeah and if the bike works. haha

hackasaw, i wish i could answer your questions but i dont have the knowledge. still interested in whatever you find out or come up with. a batteryless cb360 would be sweet.

 

[HackAsaw]

it is my opinion, without having a clue as to the CB's actual output wattage, is that adding a beefier alternator would only be necessary if you wanted to run very high energy ignition coils. 3 ohm and for sure 1.5 ohm coils, either would require electronic triggering........ and/or a single, maybe or pair of high wattage lights like may be found on a 24 hour endurance racer. A micro squirt of Accel/DFI fuel injection unit would also necessitate the need for more alternator.

Wire gauge and maximum current ratings

Gauge 12V
22 5A
20 8A
18 10A
16 20A
14 40A
12 60A
10 100A
8 150A
6 ??

Fuse size, from my chair, 15A would be too large but an interesting experiment would be to see how small a fuse you can run before it consistently pops it

and btw......... glass type fuses really stink and NO current manufacturer uses them

they are soldered on the ends and do not suffer vibration or much of anything very well

they can be broken on the ends and still appear unblown

avoid them for custom builds. Use a much more intelligent and reliable automotive blade type fuse.

The holders or "blocks" to accept them are commonly available at any auto parts store.

Good luck guys and if any of you find the alternator specs, I'd love to know them.

One of these days another CB will fall in my lap and I'll then have one to play with.