Cafe Racer Forum banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I am sure this question has been asked to death, I have only been a USCRA member two years and am fairly new to this site so I appologize in advance, But what do we pay NHIS for a single day event? What does LRRS pay for a weekend? How about Penquin or Hawk, or even track-day buyers like Max BMW? I guess I have been wondering about this ever since I went to AMP in Shubie, NS last year and was surprised to find that the track is basically club owned.
In light of our percarious position at NHIS and the fact that it seems we get the leftovers (and I realize if it were not for guys like Bob we might not even get that!)and the rumor that we may be cut to only three dates next year. I have also been wondering if a co-op or club owned facility has ever been considered here?
I have wondered this question so much that I have been doing some research on what it would take to build a similar (AMP) facility in say, west central NH somewhere off I89.
I am currently working with a developer/ GC on a fairly large project at our family business and since the CEO is a vintage car guy, he is more than willing to talk to me about it.
I am very familar with what is going on in Tamworth. I have a friend who worked there. I believe most of the problems they are running into are because they chose Tamworth!
There are places in Sullivan and Grafton Counties that still don't have zoning and land prices for large tracts are at or even below $1000 an acre. The developer believes a facility like AMP could possibly be built for around or even under $1m.
So, what do you think? Form a committee from members from all interested parties (USCRA, LRRS, SCCA, the vintage car people, go-carts, etc.), elect a board of directors, create by-laws, sell modestly priced shares, find a willing bank and go for it?
Why not?
KCampbellNH


KCampbellNH
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,267 Posts
I floated the idea about 5 years ago....I came to many of the same conclusions as yourself. I was ignored....you will be ignored. If we had taken some action five years ago....we could be well on our way to our own piece of pavement by now.
Right now we've fallen back on the old "If someone wins the lotto" plan.
JohnnyB
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,737 Posts
the going rate for asphault track is a million a mile.

the club is gonna have to look into other tracks to have events (like: summit, beaver, nelson, pocono, and the new jersey track) and more members are gonna have to travel.

some uscra'ers like to race, and race different places, so they travel. the rest just like to sit and bitch that there is only three races per year at nhis.

and we all ingnore johnny out of jealousy and contempt.

good luck with the dream.

texy "four races this year, none at nhis" mawby

"bitches!"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,809 Posts
jb financed nhf with that money right?? id rather drive other places to race then have to be involed with developing something. what can i say, im lazy. we could have all bought intovir backin the day. turns out the original investors are getting thier moneys worth. a real nice track. they just finished the garages there. 2 storys right on start finish straight. i dont know whats on the second floor. i like that miller hass bathrooms in every garage. how effin cool is that??!!

jc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
345 Posts
my 2cents..

I think it's great to go to other tracks and race different layouts instead of just racing one track 3 times a year. Dont get me wrong but NHIS is kool and the club/people are kool too. But look at it like this, your a MotoGP racer traveling the state in search of great tracks and learning your abilities or inabilities. Mind you I'm coming from NYC (heart of Manhattan), to your backyards to race.

My goal for next year is to try and race with Clancy pants, because he's hot! Tex you too.

The Dom-inican

Sotoman..

"Dude just connect the dots on the track and you'll be ok"
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,267 Posts
One of the problems is that the high ranking core of the USCRA will not travel to other tracks. I can name a dozen long time, influential members that you will never see at any track but NHIS. Most of them live within one hour of NHIS.
I can't say I blame them...I'd be partial to a track one hour away. I've got three tracks within four hours, NHIS, Quebec and Shannonville. And Beaver and Mosport within 7 hours.
The problem I see with lack of races at NHIS has more to do with the health of the club. Probably 50% of the members just don't race anywhere else. Just like probably 80% of VRRA members only race at Shannon or Mosport. Back when the USCRA had five races at NHIS...at least two of them being two day events there was a lot of enthusiasm, championships were taken seriously, lots of cool exotic bikes showed up.
There are a lot of members with children, jobs, lives...etc that make traveling a pain. So they like to race somewhere close if possible. I never assume people are in....or not in...the same boat as me.
JohnnyB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Ok, so maybe the club owned idea isn't so hot, but no one answered my first questions, I guess what I am wondering is simply this: since the club idea is not feasable, how about a good old fashioned free enterprise idea. That is, could you make money or; if you build it will they come? (enough rentals to not go broke). What is the potential, and would a bank even give such an idea a second look?
Or is this an example of the old saying in racing; How do you make a small fortune in racing? start with a large one!

On another note, does Lime Rock not do bikes or is it too expensive or both?


KCampbellNH
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,267 Posts
In general the current legal climate surrounding environmental issues makes track building a very hard sell to banks.

I've done most things in my life in kind of a sideways legal fashion. If it was my task to build a track. I'd buy about 200-300 acres...I'd build a very small house somewhere on the back third of the property...I'd build a VERY long, wide, nice....scenic circular drive up to the house and back to the road. Not a freakin thing could be done to stop you in most places.
Now....you have a piece of property, you have a piece of pavement. You can legal invite friends over and race around your driveway as long as the neighbors don't complain and your friends don't sue. So....now you have a piece of property, with pavement, with bikes on it.
Assuming you built in the right locations...meaning in the middle of nowhere.....you attempt to sell the property to a non-profit motorcycle club for private use. Now you have a non-residential piece of property, with pavement, with bikes on it.

After a year or so of having bikes hanging out, playing around, you approach whomever passes for city fathers in that area about opening up the track to rentals, club events, etc. Discuss noise, traffic whatever. If the initial location research was done properly you should be able to pull it off.

The key is starting as a private owner, with a residence, the laws are mega more flexible where private residential property is concerned. Once that pavement is down...you most of the way there. Worse case scenario the club has sell the property, and hopefully take only a 20-30% loss.

My friends that do volume paving have told me that standard 3 -4" thick pavement can be done for about $2 a square foot including bed prep...assuming suitable land....meaning no blasting, bridges, huge earth moving projects etc....just bulldozing and gravel bed.
That's about $211 k per 20' wide mile. So figure min. $400-450k for two miles of pavement. Now this would be typical standard asphalt...like we race on at Frontier Land...just parking lot/driveway asphalt...I'm sure specialty paving would be a lot more. Realistically you'd probably want to spend more like $600k to make sure you have a rock solid base to prevent cracking or other issues for the first five years.

I still say 300 dedicated people could do it no problem. Total cost might be $3-4000 per person when it was all done. Each person with a percentage stake in the track. You'd probably have to generate $50k a year to pay taxes, insurance and upkeep.

Out of the 300 members...you'd hopefully have the resources of small earth moving equipment, mowers, logging, plumbers, electricians and carpenters.
I have no doubt in my mind it could be done in the midwest somewhere...OK, Mont, Wyo, etc....but then you'd probably not have enough customers to keep it afloat.
We have a local Harley "club" here that owns a couple of hundred acres, huge club house, has giant parties and swap meets etc. Been there for years.
JohnnyB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,809 Posts
jb, in baltimore, technically, you cant hang kitchen cabinets without pulling a permit. im not saying the middle of ny is baltimore, but im sure, positive, that youd need a permit to pave 20' of 3 miles someplace. anyplace. and at least around here, and boston when i lived there, you cant just magically make something residential, commercial, or whatever it would be. ever sit through zoning variance meetings??? just google the stuff travis pastrana was doing at his house. they got him for all kindsa of stuff, again, private property with a residence. "operaing heavy equipment without a pemit", wetlands destrucion, it went on and on the stupid things they got him for. and he was just bulldozing and sawing down trees. (sound familiar aaron??) anyway....not saying it cant be done, i just think its a much bigger thing than just pave some road, invite over a few friends, then sell it to a non profit. the better way would be to form a non profit, then do it all. and banks wont even talk to you about something thats not a business. and even then its tough if you dont know what youre doing and need 3mill. if you do it privately, its a personal loan and thats unaffordable. you could always try the sbla.

im tired of this topic
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,267 Posts
All depends on your location.
For instance I had my 12 acres logged...no permit, no nothing (not on my end anyway). Of course you need a permit to build a house...but they have to let you build a drive way to it...I've never seen a permit required for a driveway in this neck of the woods. You'd need approval if you crossed or modified any wetlands, even up here. Everything up here is zoned "light industrial" which covers everything from houses to medium sized businesses. I could open a business out of my house with nary a permit in sight.
We have a dirt bike club about three miles from here that owns a couple hundred acres, they've made trails all over the place. There's a house not far from here up on a big hill where the drive has got to be 1/2 mile long...winding up the hill...major excavation required.

For a project like a track...you start out with just a gravel road. Then pave...everything in small steps. Like my building inspector once told me.....don't ask questions and you won't get answers you don't like.
Pastrana's house probably has neighbors that live in 1 million dollar houses and are not keen on lunatics living next door.

It can be done...just has to be done slow and quiet. But...it's pointless to discuss it....again...cause it ain't going to happen.
JohnnyB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,508 Posts
Folks,

Just shooting an idea out here. So let me know what you think. There's been a lot of talk about a USCRA event being held at other tracks. Or a combined event with another organization. My daughter has done some checking into the feasability of getting another track in the northeast to rent for a three day weekend. There is a track available, and it's not NHIS. What are the chances of getting 200 people at a three day event? At Pocono?
I might get into the promoting game.
Craig
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,508 Posts
Aaron,

Do you think that 200 people, from the USCRA, would show up at an away event? Does anyone know how many race at a typical USCRA event?

Craig
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,267 Posts
Craig,
I'm there will bells on baby! That's only 3.5 hours from me.

Typical entry for a USCRA Event is about 100-120 entrants. With a combined race total of around 200+ entries. Meaning...100-120 people show up and enter at least one race....about 200+ total races entered (people entering more than one). Of course I'd pay more for a three day event that I would for a one day event.

JohnnyB

PS. I can work up some numbers if you want, showing average participation at USCRA events the last few years.


Edited by - jbranson on Oct 05 2006 5:29:54 PM
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,067 Posts
quote:
Aaron,

Do you think that 200 people, from the USCRA, would show up at an away event? Does anyone know how many race at a typical USCRA event?

Craig
I only see a group of USCRA people of events like Mid-O. When ever I do a WERA event, I only see Turk and Steve D. I think more people would go to support the club but I don't think 200. I think you'd have to tie it in to a WERA vintage round to get the numbers up.

Aaron
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,737 Posts
craig,

i know pocono bob the track manager from when i used to work at team promotion. you really want to try for the north course. they have three configurations that can run simultaneously (north, east, and south). the f-usa configuration is/was part of two (i can't remember that one specifically). you probably don't want to do the east. it is flat and i think boring.

thunderbolt in millville, nj is supposed to open in march 2007.

let me know if i can help the club.

bob bove also has/had a connection with pocono too i believe.

best,

tex

"bitches!"
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top