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Discussion Starter #1
To try and improve my lap times I sit with my eyes closed with a stop watch and run a lap through my mind. Remember to extract all the divets in the track,that one little something that you zone in on when you turn it in, brake markers, apexs, etc. Try it some time, you will be amazed at how close you are to a lap on the bike.

Champ
 

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John,
Freakin interesting concept there. I'll have to give that a try...seems I've heard that some pro's run laps in their head, never heard of it with the stopwatch touch though, cool idea.

People laugh but I play a LOT of motorcycle racing video games. I'm totally convinced that it helps a tremendously. It does nothing for balance or the tactil sensations of riding a bike. It does a huge amount for timing, line choice, and organizing your brake markers, accleration and shift points. No they are not same points I use in real life but it acustoms you to organizing them in your head. I get so submersed in the games that my hair stands up when I crash, it literally scares me. They've got the track maps down do the bumps, transitions and slippery paint. When I race a Laguna I carry the front, slide the rear and shift at the same points I see them doing on TV...pretty amazing.

If classroom time and personal reflection are good for your skill, a good racing simulation is even better.
JohnnyB



Edited by - jbranson on Oct 25 2004 3:30:30 PM
 

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i used to know a guy who worked for one of those companies that built racing games. they would go to the tracks, and measure how far apart the lines on the pavement were. they go to every race and take piles of notes, pictures, etc. theyd get vip passes to get in early and stuff like that. last year, my dad found a way to get onto the track at dover during the nascar weekend. they just wandered around til they found a way onto the track. of course there were any cars on it. duh. i'll have to try the stopwatch thing. i bet i go faster ont he front straight though. and its alwasy easier to pass aaron in my head.

jc
 

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yea i've used that technique myself, it's interesting. i can do a lap of loudon in about 46 seconds in my head. but i think my 125 is making around 400 horsepower when i do.
what i've found that it is good for is realizing what parts of the track you don't know, like i said before. if you find yourself blanking on any part of the track, you can probably salvage time there in real life. it's also a good way to come up with alternate lines. if you think about a corner or set of corners enough you'll start coming up with different ways of attacking it. applying the theory is often the hard part, but worst case scenario it doesn't work, back to the drawing board.
being a college student, i can relate to the video games that johnnyB spoke of. MotoGP 3 is the best one out there in my mind. learning to modulate the throttle is my favorite part, being able to highside. and in the rain you can't actually lean the bike over all the way, so you have to modulate lean angle too, it's f--kin sweet. pete's bike and my 125 are pretty hard to highside, although i've managed to do it on the 125, and come VERY close on the little Duc.
and john, i had to laugh when you suggested going over brake markers in your head...you think they use the brakes on those 175s? johnnyB told me he doesn't even downshift for turn 1. just kidding guys, i've heard when the centrifugal clutch hooks up those things really go!

Z
 

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You know what I'm thinking.... I'm thinking Zack should meet up with a few of us 175 riders in the infield showers some night. We can show him how prison has rehabilitated us.
JohnnyB
 

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jb, i think hand eye co-ordination is what youre perfecting playing the games. i think it also teaches you how to look ahead a little bit. the games are developed that way i always thought. you have to know whats comming and be ready for it before it gets there to make it through. so i think maybe in training your mind to think that way, it helps in setting your point to point. ie, i have to be here, to make it there. you also have to be able to get yourself to make adjustments for when you are in the wrong place. the other thing is its a repitition thing. doing the same task over and over to accomplish the goal. im not a big fan of the video games. i never had much patience for the interface, and never really like the sterile feel of the wheels etc you can buy. i prefer a good game of foosball myself.

jc
 

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Discussion Starter #7
>>>>>>>>>>>>You know what I'm thinking.... I'm thinking Zack should meet up with a few of us 175 riders in the infield showers some night. We can show him how prison has rehabilitated us.<<<<<<<<<<

Sheesh,

Thank God I'm a 250 rider !!!


Champ
 

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not just a 250 RIDER, a 250 CHAMP! (who got beat by my dad on a bike he'd never ridden)...but a champ none-the-less. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

and holy cow...you guys can dish out but you can't take it. i don't know how many times i'm gonna have to tell johnnyB i think he's a good rider before he believes me. not downshifting for turn 1 means you're doing something right. by the way, you were talking about MT125s and comparing laptimes...do they weigh less than your 175? also, they're kinda purpose built racers aren't they? that might be good for a couple seconds off a laptime.


Z
 

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Oh Zack, really it has nothing to do with your thoughts on us 175 riders... we just think you're hot. You shoulda seen what we did to JC.

Are you serious about turn 1? There's a lot of road there, my bike probably tops out about 90 at NHIS. Not downshifting on my bike is not the same as not downshifting on the bikes you ride. I run 5th WOT to the last brake marker, go neutral throttle for a second..by the time I exit 1 I've scrubbed off enough that I need to get back into the throttle.....power through 1a....back off a tad and downshift before tipping it into 2..back on the throttle through 2...4th gear if I do it right... have to drop to 3 thrd at the exit of 2 if I get it wrong.

I've done some work on Yannerilla's MT... I'm guessing it's about 30 lbs lighter than my 175 ( my bike weighs 210). It has a disk brake, should be a solid 26-28 hp at the wheel and Marty weighs about 140lbs to my 200 in leathers. He runs mid 1:30's, my best time is 1:35.6. I don't think the MT's have any real advantage in handling other than what the weight difference would indicate.
I think Marty is very smooth, but he doesn't push very hard. He's one of those guys that really really doesn't like to crash. Nobody likes to, but you know what I mean. Turk runs in the 1:29's on his MT.

And we can take as good as we give.... it's just you 350 riders ohhh, you're sooooo special, getting all the girls, getting the TV face time, fancy bikes to ride, big contracts. Face it...you oppress us 200 riders, we are second class citizens. I've seen how you guys won't hang out with us.... so a few of us have been in jail, a couple are kind of gay, a few smell bad, and sometimes we touch where your bathing suit covers...doesn't make us bad guys.
JohnnyB

PS...Zack, have you heard anything about the new Honda 4 stroke "RS" bike? 250cc 4 stroke GP bike I guess.


Edited by - jbranson on Oct 26 2004 12:44:04 AM
 

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johnny, i've got good news and bad news
bad news first - your 175 doesn't go 90 at loudon, not with you on it. my 125 is at just over 100 at the end of the straight, and i figure pete's bike is at 85-90 at best. i've never gone down the straight next to you on the ducati, but i'm guessing your bike's a little slower.
the good news, i can tell you how to go faster through turn 1. you say you "go neutral throttle"? that's a no-no johnny (sorry for the condescending tone), the only time you're allowed to go neutral throttle is when inputing brake or gas will make you fall. example: down through turn 9, sometimes neutral throttle is necessary to avoid rear chatter. i would suggest going past the last brake marker with a bit of pre-turn, and grabbing the brakes for a split second and then pitching it in and opening the throttle. it might work for a passing maneuver if it's not faster straight up. what do you think, could it work?

Z

ps - just because the front wheel on pete's ducati is worth more than a dozen honda 175s doesn't make me a bad guy either...does it?
 

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johnnyB - i missed your PS first time around. no, i haven't heard anything about it. i saw a pic of a Yamaha TZ-125 replacement though, and it was a 250 four-stroke single. apparently there are some people who are interested in making GP racing all four-stroke affair. i didn't like the switch from 2 to 4 stroke in MotoGP, but it's grown on me. i don't want to see a switch in 250 or 125, but if it happens i'll still tune in. are they not going to hot-spot pistons like hell when they try to hold those 250 four-strokes wide open on a GP track? you're a tech guy, what do you think?

Z
 

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Ok...make that 82-83mph (just checked my gearbox/rpm charts).
But if feels like 90 as I blow by all those stock cb350's.

Good advice in turn one...strangely enough I've found myself edging toward that very thing... last race I noticed I had put a finger on the brake coming into 1 and was back on the gas by the apex. I tend to take a highish, deep entry into 1 and try to straight line it to 1a...sorta...I've found I have a hard time getting around the 1a rumble strip if I take a low tight line..bike kinda pushes the front over to the right just as I need to be going left a bit for 1a. In other words I like to get a good start turning on the tail end of the straight cause if I don't, I lose too much speed having to wrestle it around 1a.

I think all production racers will be four stroke within five years. I'm guessing most of your experience with four strokes on track has been with vintage bikes? Modern water cooled four strokes are very forgiving of jetting, much less prone to detonation caused by hot-spots...mainly due to flat top pistons. Dual overhead cams allows very small valve angles and short, small combustion chamber, so the pistons don't have to be domed to make compression. So they end up with good even gas flow, no protruding edges on the pistons to get hot. Nice even flame propagation.
In short the four strokes will probably be considerably less trouble to tune, and less maintainence intensive. However...considerably more expensive to fix should they break. Another plus for the four strokes is you will probably see some fuel injection, all very programable, lots 'o' fun.
Don't think thumper, think kinda of a two stroke behaving four stroke, they will be high revving, kind of pipey, short stroke with little engine braking. In other words...the best of both worlds..except when you blow them up. Probably easier to ride as the powerband will be somewhat broader. Should be in the area of 40-42hp but with increased torque.

How does that brake work on the 350 Duc? Probably no real indication but following you a while in practice at Frontier I had no problem staying with you on the brakes...looked like I might have a bit more brake in fact. I've got a worked t-500 brake, what most people would call too much brake for a 175...call me a freak...but I don't believe you can have too much brake. I can do stoppies with it anyway :)
What's the Duc weigh?

Yeah...we gotta get you on a 175 so a group of us can follow you around the track. I'd be real curious what lines, etc you end up using.
JohnnyB
 

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Discussion Starter #13
(who got beat by my dad on a bike he'd never ridden)

Z,HUH, I don't remember that race, Which one was it??

Mr Branson,
I just turned 46 last Saturday and yea I don't feel it at all. My favorite part of NHIS is from t3 to t10. From the entrance to 6(after watching roper i get on the throttle before the apex now) to the exit of 9 I just got it dialed in. I've picked off many a riders in that section.My least favorite is t11 to the exit of 12. When I was dialed in I had lap times in the 31-33 range. Best ever was a 29!! As far as the MT's go they are close to an RS. Very fast, light and nimble. A real pleasure to ride. I would own one if I could buy one for a pocket of lint.

Champ
 

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quote:
I just turned 46 last Saturday and yea I don't feel it at all. My favorite part of NHIS is from t3 to t10. From the entrance to 6(after watching roper i get on the throttle before the apex now) to the exit of 9 I just got it dialed in. I've picked off many a riders in that section.My least favorite is t11 to the exit of 12. When I was dialed in I had lap times in the 31-33 range. Best ever was a 29!!
Guess I'm still a young'n here... cool...
I like 11, but 12 is too tight. Difficult to make a clean pass there unless you have a ton more speed than the other rider.

Love that puddle that forms in 11, right in the braking zone...
 

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Turn 11-12 is still kicking my ass. I feel like I'm pulling into a parking space at the grocery store and I always get passed there.

I've learned a bunch by corner working. Watching and listening to the fast guys going through some of troublesome spots is great. Translateing isn't always so easy.


Quite a while ago I was approaching T3, already into the brake markers, when it got really loud. Roper and another guy went by on my left just as I started to turn in. It startled me a little so I must have changed my line a bit. Got back on the throttle just before the pavement change/bump when Greg Nichols goes by me on the inside on Petes Ducati. He was chasing Roper and probably picked the wrong side to pass the backmarker (me). The rear wheel on the Duc hopped as it skipped from the paint on the inside of the corner to the outside by the top at the flagpole, left leg flapping in the breeze. It straightened out and he turns back to look at me, gets a big shit eating grin and gives me a thumbs up!
In my helmet I'm thinking "what can I learn from this" The good guys have a much bigger gyroscope than I have.
-maybe a big pair of them
 

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I've been working on improving my lap times by actually riding laps with my eyes closed. Other riders aren't really an issue when you can't seem them.

Learning a track. Below are lap times from Mosport this year in the 200gp race as downloaded to the computer. Every lap you learn something new.

JOHN BRANSON 8/22/2004 11:37 MOS 23 1 02:09.7
JOHN BRANSON 8/22/2004 11:39 MOS 23 2 02:05.0
JOHN BRANSON 8/22/2004 11:41 MOS 23 3 02:05.8
JOHN BRANSON 8/22/2004 11:43 MOS 23 4 02:03.8
JOHN BRANSON 8/22/2004 11:45 MOS 23 5 02:03.4
JOHN BRANSON 8/22/2004 11:47 MOS 23 6 02:02.6
JOHN BRANSON 8/22/2004 11:49 MOS 23 7 02:00.0
 

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you don't remember that race champ? oh well. my favorite part of NHIS is from turn 1 to turn 12a...i've got that part fuckin wired. sometimes people pass me on the section in between those two, but the rest of it i own.

johnnyB - reason i ask about hot-spotting pistons was actually because of my KTM. granted it's a 450 not a 250, but i know that you have to be careful on my bike...like you're not supposed to take it on the highway and stuff.
i would say the only reason you kept up on the brakes is because you and your bike weigh less than myself and pete's bike. i don't remember what pete said for weight, but i wanna say like 260 maybe? and i go about 180 without leathers, so i'm guessing you're total package is under that. the brake on pete's bike is unreal...it's a 210mm magnesium Fontana. i only found the limits of it at frontierland when it faded a bit. it will still stand on it's nose almost on command though, i did it going into turn 3 one time kinda by accident. pete said it was a crowd-pleaser. i agree with what you said about having too much brake...almost no such thing.
i'd love to get on a 175, but for the record i am definitely scared of not being able to go as fast as you. i'd deserve a good chewing out after that one, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Z
 
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