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Discussion Starter #1
So a funny thing happened as I was shutting up the shop for the night (no not the beginning of a joke) A young guy who drops by from time to time was helping me close things down and was looking at a set of carbs and a pair of calipers that I was in the process of rebuilding. He looked them over and asked me " when ever I look at the stuff you are working on I wonder do you just replace all the screws ? " I said no of course not. "how come the slots are never buggered up, is it because you work on old guns to so you are real careful ?

So I'm going to pass on what I told him because it may help some of you. He was kind of right in that working on vintage firearms has made me rather sensitive to that sort of thing but it's not how I manage to keep the fasteners looking sharp. Years ago an old British motorbike mechanic (rode his bike rain or shine till the day he died at 87 'cause he never had a licence to drive an automobile) who one morning stopped me cold when I was trying to make do working on something using Whitworth nut and bolts with improper wrenches. After he chewed me out for that trespass he said "did you know that the Japanese motorbike need to have special screwdrivers (both phillips and slot types) if you don't want to f*#k up the slots. No I sure didn't know that but I listened to him and I still have proper Japanese tools in a bunch of sizes just as I have for my regular tool. Not only do they keep the screws looking nice they allow you to get some out that you you would normally have a hard time with. Where they really help is things like engine cases, electric components but mostly screws that are hardly ever removed.

Anyway just passing this tidbit along as one of those things that has helped over the years. Cheers !
 

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Great story and Yes, they are JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) set screws and screwdrivers, the best tend to be Vessell but Lazer (iirc) in the UK/europe make a decent set, too.

The best thing about them is they work a treat on Phillip's too, as they've a shallower profile but Phillips into JIS will cause issues.

Here's one helping to remove an old air filter on a '98 'blade
20181013_190629.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Great story and Yes, they are JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) set screws and screwdrivers, the best tend to be Vessell but Lazer (iirc) in the UK/europe make a decent set, too.

The best thing about them is they work a treat on Phillip's too, as they've a shallower profile but Phillips into JIS will cause issues.

Here's one helping to remove an old air filter on a '98 'blade View attachment 103827
Great story and Yes, they are JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) set screws and screwdrivers, the best tend to be Vessell but Lazer (iirc) in the UK/europe make a decent set, too.

The best thing about them is they work a treat on Phillip's too, as they've a shallower profile but Phillips into JIS will cause issues.

Here's one helping to remove an old air filter on a '98 'blade View attachment 103827
Vessell is the brand I have. I almost never ruin a phillips screw as long as I use these little buggers. The vintage gunsmithing is a truly crazy world when it comes to screwdrivers. My smithing set has a handle and I would guess 75 different sized tips in both flat blade and phillips.
 

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I have never understood the American love affair with the phillips pattern, they are a terrible thing to use. Robertson, a Canadian invention, cover most applications here, metric or imperial. If there isn't a suitable robertson, then allen's are what I use. Old Japanese almost always have some stripped heads where some dork has used a phillips on the JIS hardware.
The gun smithing tools is a great idea. I have ground a bunch of slot/flat screwdriver tips, over the years, to make them fit antique furniture screws. Not as critical as gun hardware, in that it can be replaced with like in some cases, but if it is visible it needs to be correct and unblemished. And the driver has to fit properly to remove the screw cleanly.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I have never understood the American love affair with the phillips pattern, they are a terrible thing to use. Robertson, a Canadian invention, cover most applications here, metric or imperial. If there isn't a suitable robertson, then allen's are what I use. Old Japanese almost always have some stripped heads where some dork has used a phillips on the JIS hardware.
The gun smithing tools is a great idea. I have ground a bunch of slot/flat screwdriver tips, over the years, to make them fit antique furniture screws. Not as critical as gun hardware, in that it can be replaced with like in some cases, but if it is visible it needs to be correct and unblemished. And the driver has to fit properly to remove the screw cleanly.
Most firearm screws have no taper in the slots so the fit must be spot on or you bugger up the screw. That's the first thing I look for when buying vintage guns. Replacing the screws can be a problem because there is so many colors and conditions the screw can be in and if not they stand out like a sore thumb
 

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Vessell is the brand I have. I almost never ruin a phillips screw as long as I use these little buggers. The vintage gunsmithing is a truly crazy world when it comes to screwdrivers. My smithing set has a handle and I would guess 75 different sized tips in both flat blade and phillips.
I bought a gunsmithing set with a big assortment of tips from Brownell's awhile back. They have really come in handy on a lot of projects.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
(y) (y) (y) Robertsons simply won't cam out.
Woosman, I totally agree as far as a complete dislike for phillips screws. Years ago I attended a 2 year engineering program (it specialized in racing and performance engineering ) at Chaffee College in S. Calif.. The instructor was a great guy and he gave us a plethora of good info. Believe it or not one of the best; all be a sidebar , was he'd give you a history of a idea or design. He and a few of the other students had stopped at a pub for a pint as it was the start of the summer break. I asked him why he always included a history of ideas and he said if we understood where the design came from he felt that it would allow our own brains to become ready for new concepts. One of his history lessons was about the Phillips screw head. I'll not bore you with the whole linage of the design but what he did say is that american automotive designers began thinking that it looked cleaner and more european even less industrial than the straight slot. Now I must almost agree at least on the face of it. I still hate the bloody things and switch to allen head screws when ever I can. The allens don't get stripped as easily and you can snug them up tighter and easier and in my world the most important more quickly. I have never heard of Robertson but upon logging of here that will be my next stop. Cheers
 

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Woosman, I totally agree as far as a complete dislike for phillips screws. Years ago I attended a 2 year engineering program (it specialized in racing and performance engineering ) at Chaffee College in S. Calif.. The instructor was a great guy and he gave us a plethora of good info. Believe it or not one of the best; all be a sidebar , was he'd give you a history of a idea or design. He and a few of the other students had stopped at a pub for a pint as it was the start of the summer break. I asked him why he always included a history of ideas and he said if we understood where the design came from he felt that it would allow our own brains to become ready for new concepts. One of his history lessons was about the Phillips screw head. I'll not bore you with the whole linage of the design but what he did say is that american automotive designers began thinking that it looked cleaner and more european even less industrial than the straight slot. Now I must almost agree at least on the face of it. I still hate the bloody things and switch to allen head screws when ever I can. The allens don't get stripped as easily and you can snug them up tighter and easier and in my world the most important more quickly. I have never heard of Robertson but upon logging of here that will be my next stop. Cheers
So Robertson's is simply a square female connection. Where I've seen this the most is around construction like decks and fences. Don't see me switching as they seem to lak any esthetic appeal plus I like the idea of both the male and female fasteners coming from the same genus. This said I'll still screw my deck down with the Robertson thingies.
 

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So Robertson's is simply a square female connection. Where I've seen this the most is around construction like decks and fences. Don't see me switching as they seem to lak any esthetic appeal plus I like the idea of both the male and female fasteners coming from the same genus. This said I'll still screw my deck down with the Robertson thingies.
Nothing is as mechanically ugly as a phillips screw.

Ford wanted to use the Robertson "thingies", Robertson wouldn't sell him the patent so they came up with torx or some other useless configuration. Next time you're breaking out the impact driver to remove another fucked up phillips think of Ford, his lobbying stopped you from getting a proper fastening system.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Nothing is as mechanically ugly as a phillips screw.

Ford wanted to use the Robertson "thingies", Robertson wouldn't sell him the patent so they came up with torx or some other useless configuration. Next time you're breaking out the impact driver to remove another fucked up phillips think of Ford, his lobbying stopped you from getting a proper fastening system.
TORX what a flaming pain in the ass ! I work on BMW's quite a bit. The newer ones use Torx exclusively. Now I can look at a bolt and know it's a 13 mm or a 7/16 and go and grab a socket. After 20 years of screwing around with the torx system I still can't look at a screw and know if it's a 47 or a 50 torx. I almost never use my electric ratchets to start removing something just because it's too east to start spinning it off with a 47 when it's actually a 50 and ruining the bloody thing. Hate em, hate em. hate em ! When you get down to the really small sizes then good luck might as well use drill bits.

I can sure see why Ford wanted to go with the Robinson system sure would cut down on the number of tools. I would think if you are the one doing the design you could get it down to 4 or 5 sizes. Interesting info ..........thank you.
 

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Nothing is as mechanically ugly as a phillips screw.

Ford wanted to use the Robertson "thingies", Robertson wouldn't sell him the patent so they came up with torx or some other useless configuration. Next time you're breaking out the impact driver to remove another fucked up phillips think of Ford, his lobbying stopped you from getting a proper fastening system.
That's what I heard as well.
Ford was the 'Steve Jobs' of his day, reasonably good products but greedy asshole wanting to control everything
 
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That's what I heard as well.
Ford was the 'Steve Jobs' of his day, reasonably good products but greedy asshole wanting to control everything
Yea if you read the history of Ford he did pay his people pretty well but worked them hard and tried his damndest to do away from the unions. He was also the guy who thought that if it was his idea it was the only right idea, You would still only be able to buy model A's at a Ford dealer if Henry had his way. The Model B took almost a company management rebelion to get into production. It did save the company hell Bonnie and Clyde loved them.
 

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If you watch the series about abandoned structures,(Mysteries of the Abandoned?) the Ford rubber plantation was on it a couple of years ago. Seems he had the place run like a concentration camp but did have school and hospital for the workers even if he didn't want them to have any time away from the plantation
 
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