Trying again: CSC SG400 RE3 cafe racer is pretty good.

KTM motors are made in china by CTFMoto as well.

The longest journey was two weeks and 2500 miles in California. I started in Azusa (northeast of LA) and rode west until I hit ocean. I rode Highway 1 north until it ended, picked up the 101 for a very short stint, and then rode the avenue of the giants from end to end. I turned around and backtracked to pick up mattole road, and took that back west through some beautiful country called the Kings Range. I stopped in Honeydew, which used to be an empty, desolate town with a few farmers here and there. Now it's a major weed growing area, with bleary-eyed college students making pilgrimage to get the good stuff right from the source. There are tye-die t-shirts with the different "flavors" of pot from the area. It's become touristy and dumb. But then, last time I was there was 2004-ish, and time marches on. I rode up to Ferndale and then up north hugging the coast as much as I could, going through loleta and bayview, then heading west across Tuluwat island to Samoa. I then turned north and curved eastward through Manila and Arcata. A this point, there weren't any more backroad choices to continue north, I had to choose the 101, or optionally take every "business 101" in every small town just to get a break from the monotony. My goal was to hit Oregon just to add another state to my list of "states I've ridden in", but 10 minutes into the ride on the highway, I realized I wasn't having fun anymore. I was just trying to bag a state, and it was two hours to oregon and another two back here, on a soulless multilane highway.

So I pulled off and turned around. I made it back to sunny brae, and then turned down freshwater road. In kneeland it turned to gravel, and I suffered on through with bouncy, pogo-ing shocks that were constantly bottoming out. I finally got to 36, and headed east and gunned it. This was more the SG400's forte - long high speed sweepers. Even with bad rear shocks it performed pretty well here, and I was going at a fair clip. I went through Chester and got a some food, then backtracked and turned onto 89 South. I rode through the burned-out remains of the town of Greenville. The wildfires took the entire town, there was no structure left. Lamp poles were melted and sagging, debris everywhere, but perfect sidewalks and roads and clean streets and curbs. It was spooky. There were people there digging through the rubble looking for anything left to salvage. It was really sad.

I went through Graeagle and noticed more and more and more fire damage. I made it to Truckee on a nice 70 degree evening, found a hotel, and got some rest. I woke up the next day to snow and 28 degrees. I dicked around for a while until it got above freezing, threw on my heated liner and once again headed out. My original plan was to hit Reno, Nevada, but it was cold and snow the entire way. So instead I got the fuck off the mountain, and headed southwest on 80, then picked up 49 and went through pacerville, merced falls, and from there east and south on Hornitos road. I pulled into Mariposa for a hotel and found a great saloon. It was the local's dive bar, not the touristy expensive restaurants and bars on the main drag. It was fun. From there on I was running out of time, so I aimed myself towards LA. I got on 99 south and went through some very interesting farming and industrial areas. Somehow even the industrial areas were picturesque. Eventually I picked up highway 5 south of bakersfield and just opened the throttle. I don't know if you guys are aware, but the speed limit is completely ignored on highway 5. I cranked it up to 90 and was still being passed. So I wound it out, and held it at 94 mph for miles and miles. I didn't drop below 85mph the entire time I was on highway 5.

As I got into LA proper traffic started to pile up, and I just lane split my entire way back to Azusa. GPS thought it was going to take me 3 hours, and I made it in less than half that time. The bike is low and agile but also stable, and it's SUPER easy to lane split with. It turned what would have been an agonizing section of road in North Carolina into a fun, exciting obstacle course. Finally back in Azusa, I got a hotel and took all my luggage off. I spent the next day riding around the hot LA desert unencumbered by luggage. It was a lot nicer ride with those shocks. Eventually I brought the bike back to CSC, and they crated it up and sent it to my house via railcar, while I flew home. Total was just under 2500 miles from start to finish.

I hjad the first oil change done by a harley shop in Fort Bragg, and I did the first valve adjustment myself the following morning, in a secluded campsite. Valve adjustment was easy, getting the tank on and off without a helper was a bit of a challenge, but i managed. The bike made good power the entire trip. I didn't beat on it, but I didn't baby it either, I just broke it in by riding how I wanted to ride it. It made better power every day until it hit about 1500 miles, and then leveled off. It would go up steep california hills in 6th gear at 70mph without needing to downshift at all.

So yeah, my first trip with it was with the stock suspension. I'm 285 lbs and had 60 pounds of gear with me. By the end of the trip I had mailed half my gear home. I decided I was told old and it was too friggin cold at night for me to camp. Since I was now hoteling it, that got rid of a tent, a tarp, a sleeping bag, mess kit, and more. After the first 1500 or so miles, I also sent all my tools home. The bike seemed reliable and I had already adjusted the valves for the first time, so I kept a tiny socket set, the tools I'd need to adjust my chain, and my multitool and sent the rest back home. In fact, I didn't need to adjust the chain the entire trip. It's a 530 x-ring chain, and even though the bike sits at 3500 miles right now, I still havent' needed to adjust it at all. The bike also used no oil or coolant the entire trip. Oil was still amber, in fact.

Once I got back to NC, and the bike eventually made its way to my house (It was supposed to take 4 days but it took more than a month because railyard workers in Louisiana all quit. So my crate hung out there for more than three weeks!!). Got the bike back, and of course now it's almost december and balls cold. I experimented with shocks. I bought the absolute cheapest 15" chinese shocks on eBay, bolted them on, and went for a ride. And well, shit. They were FAR better than stock. They were $40 RFY clones. And RFY was a clone of an ancient Ohlins design. So I had a clone of a clone shocks on the bike, and they were adequate. If the bike had come with these shocks, I wouldn't have complained. They had enough preload, and while the rebound damping was still too slow, it was ENORMOUSLY BETTER than the stock pogo sticks. With the stock shocks I'd hit a bump and bottom the shock, then it would bounce four times. Usually the first bounce also bottomed the shock. With the cheapest eBay shocks I could find, there was still a bit of a bounce, but no bottoming, no wallow, and no handling issues. I got these shocks mostly so I could play with raising the ride height in the rear. Stock shocks were 14.5", and I thought the bike handled a little slowly so I raised the rear to 15", and that seemed like a nice sweet spot. If the bike had come with these shocks, I would have still upgraded them eventually, but they would have been completely adequate for the bike. I would have had a better time on my trip as well. (meaning, I could have ridden faster and taken the gravel route more often)

Now that I had the height sorted, I ordered a pair of YSS shocks for the bike, and have been very happy with them. I'm a heavy guy tho, and the YSS might be too stiff for Joe Average. Damping is a tad too fast on these, making me feel every little tar snake or bit of gravel on the road. Which is better than wallowing, great for twisties, but still not exactly perfect. I may make a bunch of measurements and have hagon custom-make me a pair, but for now the YSS shocks are working great.

So... there's my story so far.

Charles.

Westfield11 said:

I find it interesting that the powers-that-be in S Korea decided to not go into the motorcycle business, choosing instead to focus on 4-wheelers. Imagine if the Hyundai/Kia conglomerate had decided 40 years ago to take on Honda in motorcycles instead of cars. It took them a while, but now they are just a good, if not better than the Japanese in nearly every segment of the auto market. Genesis is no Lexus, yet, but would you bet against them getting there in 5 to 10 years?
As for China, I had a Lance scooter for a few years and was very happy with the Price/Quality ratio. The Janus motor is100% Chinese made although still a Honda design and seems to be just fine. Ditto the Buicks sold in the USA: made in China…..
The real problem with buying Chinese is not the design or the build quality, it is that you might as well be buying a VW in 1939…… do you really want to give your money and support to a government that is the Nazis of today? I realize that we are supposed to avoid politics, but how can you separate out the policies of the country of origin when the government and industry are so intertwined? At this point, buying a new Chinese made vehicle is not too different from wearing cotton in 1850: it’s the made by slaves on a big plantation…..
Great tech though!

Click to expand...

South Korea tried to enter into the US market in the 1998 with the Hyosung brand. They were initially far better quality than the Chinese bikes that came decades later. Hyosung made the SV650 engine for Suzuki, and they put a strikingly similar 75hp 650 v-twin in every bike they made, from cruiser to standard to sportbike. They also had some 250s that made 27hp in the early 00s. Unheard of power, except for the EX250 ninja of course, and half the price. But they had no marketing, not a great reputation, fit and finish was sub-par, but still within the realm of "good enough". There were few dealers, and they closed up shop in North America in 2018. You can still buy them across the pond in Europe I believe. The Hyosung Avatar/Aquila 650 was a pretty interesting cruiser. It was made back when the V-Rod, VTX1800, and Yamaha Roadstar Warrior were all competing to be the next big muscle cruiser. It came with USD forks and sportbike rims and tires with a 80hp engine and v-rod-esque styling. Lots of aluminum kept the weight to a downright svelte 481 pounds. The styling was not for everyone, but the bike was a solid sleeper and I'd bet pinks against a VTX or Roadstar Warrior any day. (V-Rod perhaps not). You can still find them occasionally on cycle trader. The blacked-out ones looked the best, the chrome intakes were gaudy IMO. Unfortunately, the market changed, and super-wide-tired performance cruisers disappeared overnight. Hysoung never got the memo though, and they kept on trying to sell the world a sporty cruiser for many more years. Eventually they shoe-horned the motor into a standard cruiser frame, and made a bike that looked like a harley or a honda shadow, but had near 80 horsepower, and had the options for a full touring kit (bags, trunk, windshield). And still it didn't sell. Then they had a huge factory fire and that was the last nail in the coffin. Hyosung quietly exited the US market in 2018, just as the early Chinese bikes were making big inroads.

As for the politics: all I'm gonna say is that I see more Nazis at republican rallies than I do anywhere else. Okay, that's not the only thing. The US is not innocent. Our country bombs schools and families to target one guy, we put kids in cages, we have the highest incarceration rate in the world, and it's predominantly one single race of people in our prisons. Our police force uses paramilitary equipment, is known for the use of excessive force, and murders people when they think they can get away with it. (And up until just recently, they could always get away with it). The point I'm trying to make here is that we're not clean and perfect and blameless. Our country is just as bad as China or Russia. Big governments will always be big assholes, especially to each other. Let the governments figure it all out, I'm just going to buy bikes that appeal to me.

That's another thing.... bikes that appeal to me. The Japanese have gotten lazy. They're not innovating or bringing anything new to the table. Bikes like the Benelli Leoncino Trail, the CSC SG400, the Fantic Caballaro Rally, and CFMoto 800MT are cool and interesting to me. They fill niches that nobody else fills right now. The Europeans are concentrating on making big expensive performance machines. The Japanese are maintaining status quo, and there's nobody making NEW midsized, mid-priced bikes. Nobody except the Chinese, that is. And so far, they're good motorcycles. The fantic in particular I wish we could get here. A dual sport that's not based on 30-year-old technology, and has styling cues from the 70s. How long has Yamaha been making a 12 horsepower TW200 or XT225/250 of some sort or another? Since 1987 at least, virtually unchanged at that.

Also, in a day and age when most Japanese motorcycles look like a cockroach fucked a transformer, it's interesting to see that the Chinese by and large are making motorcycles that look like... well... motorcycles. Kinda retro styling even.

I mean, based on looks alone, which would you rather own? The CB500X or the Benelli Leoncino Trail?

Anyhow, I'm long-winded yet again, so I'll end here

Charles.

Charles.

The tires are tubeless radials. The tubeless rim design is not a copy of anything, it's a Zongshen design. The same style tubeless rims also come stock their 450cc adventure bike, the RX4. (albeit in different sizes). Personally, I like black rims, but I think the bike would look better with silver footpeg brackets/exhaust hanger, and maybe a silver valve cover, along with a color-matched lower cowl.

Still, I'm really happy with how it looks now, and will be making a few more minor changes. Zongshen tank logo, white OEM style stripes, rim tape. Basically, I fell in love with the Chinese market release bike that the hottie is riding here:


And I'm just waiting on the yellow side covers, rim stripes, tank badge, and tank stripes to finish turning my boring gray US model into the one I actually fell in lust with

Charles.

You're right, I looked and they're bias ply tires. They're still pretty good tires. I made an assumption there. They are tubeless at least!

@gt alex The Apollo cafe racer you posted is a Mash 400, using a near-exact copy of the Honda XR400 motor. It's not a Zongshen and has no relationship to the SG400/RE3. Non-cafe retro versions of the Mash are sold sold in the USA as Genuine G400C for $3999. The bike is basically an XR400 motor crammed into a nice vintage CB350-looking bike. Unfortunately it has all the caveats of the XR400 motor. Vibration, low horsepower, and sub-90mph top speed. While the same XR400 hop-ups will work on the motor, the bike is fuel injected and nobody currently makes a fuel controller for it. I test rode one and found it was a blast on city streets, but not so much fun on the interstate (though it would maintain 80 even up steep hills and with a headwind). The peg position is a little odd, but other than that I liked it. Cleveland Cycleworks did a pretty slick scrambler conversion to one using an aftermarket XR400 high pipe.




If I didn't already have two scramblers and an adventure bike in addition to my SG400 cafe racer, I'd probably buy one...

Charles.

Well, the QJ/Geely group took over Benelli and made them orders of magnitude more reliable than they were in the 90s and early 00s. They're the same Chinese company that owns Lotus and Volvo FWIW. They took Benelli from making expensive partially handmade superbikes with a terrible reputation for poor fit and finish being wholly unreliable - and made the company go back to the basics. They started all over making small budget bikes, and are building back up to making high performance machines. Benelli of the past was trying to run before they could walk, the Chinese management saved the company and the brand. The bikes are all still designed by Italians in Pesaro Italy, in the same Benelli factory as before. Some models (TRK502 and Leoncino) are assembled in the Pesaro factory as well, but only for European markets. US and Australian models are assembled in China. The latest news is that Benelli is making their 3-cylinder 118 horsepower 899 Tornado again and already selling it in India. If the recent benellis are any indication, the Tornado 899 will be reliable, the paint won't have orange peel, the body panels will line up, and it won't go through stators like Rosie O'donnel through a buffet. (All common problems from Italy-managed Benelli bikes) They're also partnering with MV Agusta to design and manufacture a new generation of 4-cylinder high-performance motors.

Say what you will about the Chinese... they're not the ones resting on their laurels right now. They're innovating. There's been nothing interesting from the big four Japanese manufacturers in decades, except perhaps the grom. Every year it's the same old stuff with a slightly higher price. The top tier Chinese companies know that reliability and power at a cheaper price is what it's going to take to sell to North America, and they're not going to make anything that tarnishes the reputation they're trying so hard to build. In short, they're hungry.

Also, the bolts made out of cheese thing... that was over some time ago. You don't see that crap in modern Chinese motorcycles from big companies. Only in the sketchy crap you'd buy off of Amazon or at a Pep Boys.



Charles.

This is how it's looking today. Got the tank color I wanted, zongshen badges, the sidecovers and windscreen in yellow. I'm waiting on the OEM wheel tape to arrive, and then it will be done, except for racking up mileage.

Charles.

This is the latest setup. The stock windscreen was poorly aimed, and I got a lot of helmet lift with it. This one was raw aluminum when I purchased it, but I painted it to match the yellow on the rest of the bike. It's actually an exact match, but in the photo it's reflecting the sunset and looks slightly off. It doesn't do much to protect me, but it did eliminate the helmet lift.

I used YSS shocks, part number RE302-380T-04-X
I'm nearly 300 lbs, and I use just a little preload on them. 200 lbs probably no preload. These have a lot of rebound damping and many would call them harsh. They're perfect for twisties and mountain roads, and less than perfect for commuting and highway travel. The bike however handles like it's on rails with this setup, even with the stock tires. I can't wait to wear these out and put some sporty radials on it.

TEC also makes some shocks that work great on the bike, and are suitable for lighter riders. Just make sure you get 15"/380mm. (Stock is 14.5", but it handles rather slowly and the 15" gives it noticeably better cornering clearance when making left-hand turns). Check the ADVRider thread for more info.

Honestly, before I ordered the YSS shocks I ordered the cheapest, crappiest $45 pair of remote-reservoir 15" shocks I could find on eBay... RFX, which is a clone of RFY, which is itself a clone of Ohlins. I had zero expectations..... and they were WAY better than stock. Still too little rebound damping, but WAAAAAY better than stock.

Charles.

Also, I forgot to mention. I snagged a 13T countershaft sprocket, and the bike has completely changed demeanor. It's fast and responsive and much more fun. Unfortunately, my top speed is now rev-limited to ~95mph indicated. This is because the rev limiter kicks in right at 9500 rpm, instead of the 10k rpm the redline is printed on the gauge. Since 9500rpm = 95mph with the 13T, if it really did top out at 10k my top speed would be 100 indicated (or 98 actual. The speedo is quite accurate)

Every other bike I've owned has had the redline printed 1000-1500 rpm away from the peak horsepower rpm, and most don't kick in the rev limiter until you're 500rpm beyond that. Having a hard rev limiter only 500 rpm past peak hp is annoying. I've downloaded the ECU and I'm going to see if I can't modify it and re-flash it without the rev limiter. Poking along because I don't really know what I'm doing yet with ECU Hacker

At any rate, cruising at 70mph, the bike is now in the power band. Passing no longer requires a downshift. It's just a shitload more fun all around. With stock gearing, it took a long time to get to 95mph, but with this gearing it's pretty much instantaneous. No difficulty at all. But that's all she has now. I think it's worth it.

Charles.

Those saddlebags didn't work out. They sagged and touched the exhaust and caught fire. They also scratched up the sidecovers and wore a shiny spot on the black shocks.

These bags are decent, and they're quick-release, with brackets custom-made for the RE3. I have a set for my Benelli, and they're decent. e.

• [USD 94.62] Motorcycle burglar-proof retro RE3 retrofit side Applicable side mounting RA2400 package Zongshen Lossless Sykoron Box - Wholesale from China online shopping | Buy asian products online from the best shoping agent - ChinaHao.com
• [USD 109.41] Retro motorcycle side wrapping side box Zen Shen ZS400 Sykoron RE3 RA2 Longxin Promise 300AC retrofit piece - Wholesale from China online shopping | Buy asian products online from the best shoping agent - ChinaHao.com

There are several sellers of these. The pair is the most expensive option ($254), the others are for a single side. Bags are synthetic and the bottle holder is useless, as any weight in it stretches the securing loops. But the hardware is good, and you can always transfer the hardware to whatever bags you find in the future.


Chinahao is just as reliable as aliexpress for me so far.


Also, 4300 miles and not a single problem. This has become my favorite of all the bikes in my garage.

Charles.