Very early 2 stroke motor 1900-20s ???

Panther - I hope not.

The Scott was remade under the Silk name in the later 70’s, good chassis made by Spondon but some poor quality engine work let them down a bit.

I interestingly I have seen a few guys putting Yamaha TZ guts inside Scott cases and in a period Scott frame - bloody fast and bloody scary in a 1940’s chassis.

jalsteve said:

M100 and M120 Panther you can keep. They weigh an absolute tonne, have got a complete M120 front end here and it weighs almost as much as an Ariel Square 4 engine. Sorry but panthers are best used as an anchors.

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I know they are basically agricultural implements. I was over your side of the pond many years ago and my brother was dealing with a fellow on a JAP twin. We went to his house and then he took us (on his Panther hack) over to where he had the engine stored. The building was full of wondrous things. A Garden Gate Manx and Brough Pendine were amongst the herd. We thought it odd that he rode the Panther... other than he could haul stuff and nobody would steal a Panther.... plus they were available almost free. I would still like a hack of some sort and would prefer a nice Panther (assuming there actually is such a thing) over any of the Russian stuff or a Chang Jiang. Anyway... back to reality. I don't think there were too many, if any folks nuts enough to export one to North America.

If you want a solo (m120) and fit your own chair I can have one in a container and on it way to you off around £3.5k plus shipping its completely original unrestored and in great condition, it runs really well too. They’re fetching quite good money restored around 6500 in the uk.

The Ariel is a 1946 basket case and is basically no different to the prewar bikes from 1938 frame is rigid with girder Forks they’re quite pretty things. Worrying white metal big ends, zero piston available etc going to be a challenge this one. Need some tinware too.

Kind of you to offer to help facilitate my odd behaviour. That actually sounds nice and reasonable, but if I announced to my cohorts that I imported a M120 instead of something more noble, I would likely be on the receiving end of a good old fashioned shit kicking. Hard to believe that they now get 6500 restored, but I suppose relative to everything else....

Relative is correct.

A Square 4 OHC 500cc bike sold about a year ago for £42k. The iron engine Square 4 1000cc bike will be £20-25k finished. So £3.5k for a Panther M120 in 100% original condition is bad at all, the speedo calibrated in yards per engine revolution is also rather quirky. At least you'll be different!

jalsteve said:

If you want a solo (m120) and fit your own chair I can have one in a container and on it way to you off around £3.5k plus shipping its completely original unrestored and in great condition, it runs really well too. They’re fetching quite good money restored around 6500 in the uk.

The Ariel is a 1946 basket case and is basically no different to the prewar bikes from 1938 frame is rigid with girder Forks they’re quite pretty things. Worrying white metal big ends, zero piston available etc going to be a challenge this one. Need some tinware too.

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a buddy of mine has a grip of sq 4's 2 enginres in frame one engine all newly refurbed and stacks of spares nos and used
swinger frame jobs with teles so post war eh
he cannot build it all i am trying to presuade him into build one or 2 nice ridable bikes and paying for it with selling spares he wont need
of course that takes organazation must know what not to sell off right away but when you get a chance pm me a list of what you need
dude has some ajs twins and a couple singles as well his uncle left it all to him
lucky bastage good kid tho

Cyorg said:

Kind of you to offer to help facilitate my odd behaviour. That actually sounds nice and reasonable, but if I announced to my cohorts that I imported a M120 instead of something more noble, I would likely be on the receiving end of a good old fashioned shit kicking. Hard to believe that they now get 6500 restored, but I suppose relative to everything else....

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There are plenty of 1960's BSA twins you can have for that $6500 here in the US. For some reason they just haven't climbed in value like triumphs or nortons.

Think of having a M120 Panther in the US like being the guy who imports a Lada or a Trabant. Sure it's a terrible car, but it's the only one at any regional event you go to and collects all the trophies.

jalsteve said:

Relative is correct.

A Square 4 OHC 500cc bike sold about a year ago for £42k. The iron engine Square 4 1000cc bike will be £20-25k finished. So £3.5k for a Panther M120 in 100% original condition is bad at all, the speedo calibrated in yards per engine revolution is also rather quirky. At least you'll be different!

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Gotta love something that goes bang every second lamp post.... and I'm already different.

Geeto67 said:

There are plenty of 1960's BSA twins you can have for that $6500 here in the US. For some reason they just haven't climbed in value like triumphs or nortons.

Think of having a M120 Panther in the US like being the guy who imports a Lada or a Trabant. Sure it's a terrible car, but it's the only one at any regional event you go to and collects all the trophies.

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I wouldn't mind having a 650 Lightning. I owned one back in the day. Beat it, abused it, treated it badly. Loaned it to a friend who rode an RD350. He said the BSA vibrates a lot, but starts to smooth out at 7k. Wouldn't mind another one but wouldn't want one with a sidecar on it. Lada actually sold cars in Canada. Sound insulation between the rear seat and trunk was made from straw. Anyone who brings another one of those things to this side of the pond should be shot and pissed on.

I have a hankering for a old slow sidecar outfit that doesn't arrive in bins and boxes. I try to spend time on the channel islands here. Motorcycles are relatively cheap to take on the ferry and my favourite island has max 50 kmh, so an old thumper would be just fine.

Cyorg said:

I wouldn't mind having a 650 Lightning. I owned one back in the day. Beat it, abused it, treated it badly. Loaned it to a friend who rode an RD350. He said the BSA vibrates a lot, but starts to smooth out at 7k. Wouldn't mind another one but wouldn't want one with a sidecar on it.

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Fair point.

Lada actually sold cars in Canada. Sound insulation between the rear seat and trunk was made from straw. Anyone who brings another one of those things to this side of the pond should be shot and pissed on.

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I'm sure these guys would have something to say about that: Lada USA Discussion Board :: Index

I have a hankering for a old slow sidecar outfit that doesn't arrive in bins and boxes. I try to spend time on the channel islands here. Motorcycles are relatively cheap to take on the ferry and my favourite island has max 50 kmh, so an old thumper would be just fine.

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Sounds like you need to just buy a new Royal Enfield and one of their cheap India made sidecars most of the dealers stock. We had one at the dealer I used to work at, rode it a few times, it was nice, light, and easy to work with. I honestly would consider one for myself if I had a use for one.


isn't this a single:
https://indianapolis.craigslist.org/mcy/d/2001-bmw-650gs-neval-sidecar/6540487227.html

My lack of diplomacy regularly rears its head. Another reason why I would make a good hermit. Here... fill your boots. I double dog dare you. The Stoke | Classifieds - Revelstoke, BC

Not a bad idea, but for some reason, I don't think I could do the new Royal Enfield thing. An Indian copy just doesn't seem to have the same panache. Nothing against them... just another quirk of mine. I might need one of their sidecars simple because they are hard to come by around here.

As for the BMW, that seems way too practical and lacks the soul/personality of a agricultural contraption like the Panther.

I guess I could put one on the V11 if I absolutely had to, but that would be like neutering Ollie.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bsa-M21-With-Side-Car/332615766940?hash=item4d7171d39c:g:FW4AAOSwUDBay-R1

Odd thing is if you take the side car off its worth £6k!!!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1955-BSA...531485?hash=item2a92bdb09d:g:gRgAAOSwCJxZ7eDB

or maybe

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-Star...130205?hash=item239dbaf31d:g:u4IAAOSwVzRaw5cz

Cyorg said:

Gotta love something that goes bang every second lamp post.... and I'm already different.

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We're all different.

All R&D is now centre in the UK and is undertaken by Harris Performance, Harris were purchased by Eicher Motors a few years ago, Eicher also own Royal Enfield. So they've got a bit of Brit in them!

Geeto67 said:

I sell them so I am a little biased, but I will tell you - they aren't really an indian "copy". The original bullets made from 1957-2005 were made from the original UK tooling and molds supplied from Royal Enfield UK when it opened it's india division just to supply the Indian Army. The India division just figured out how to outlast it's UK parent. the 2005-2009 AVL lean burn engines, used that original chassis but made significant improvements to the engine to pass emissions. Again, not really a copy since UK enfield had been dead for 30+ years at that point. The new bikes 2009-present aren't copies of anything. They are clean sheet designs. They share less with the original bullet than a brand new sportster shares with the original 1957 ironhead. They are every inch everything you like in a new motorcycle, coupled to most of what is likeable about vintage bikes. The only thing they lack is the mechanical sympathy that comes with old bikes breaking down and leaving you on the side of the road. I think of them more like SR400s than I do "copies", bikes that have evolved over time, but never lost the theme of what made them great. Really, you should go out and ride a new one - I think you'll find it better than you were expecting.

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There... fixed it for you. Sounds like you never stopped selling them. I knew the first part of that story about the original tooling, but never followed them or looked at the new ones. There is a dealer not all that far from here and two for sale on Craigslist. I'll have to take a peek at one, but my gut feeling is that I will still want to have something from back in the day. I have a couple of folks on the hunt for a sidecar, so we'll see if anything comes out of that. I do have a OIF TR6, but can't imagine that would be a good thing for hack material. I did find pictures of one on the net and apparently there are mounting kits available. My frame is free from cracks, but I can't see going that route without bracing the swingarm/oil tank area. If that Panther was for sale locally and I didn't have to jump through hoops shipping/importing/registering, it would be so easy to pull the trigger. I love the homely/obscure/impractical.

I don't make money off them, but it doesn't stop me from being a fan. I'm a fan of singles in general, and there aren't a lot of options these days for new ones that still deliver the purity of an old sporting 400-600cc single. It's basically the RE, the SR400 and ????

If you really want an "old" one there is always this:

https://swmi.craigslist.org/mcy/d/2005-royal-enfield-bullet/6527566587.html

The pre-2009 pre-UCE engines are literally the same thing they have been making since the 1950s. If you really have to have the "Vintage" year on the title you can buy an old frame and transfer every single part over - that's ho little they changed. Same drum brakes, same 4 speed pre-unit trans with neutral finder, same carburetor, etc... It makes 1/2 the HP that the UCE makes and they are known for being temperamental if not broken in properly, but it is every inch a 1955 modern motorcycle and can tow a light-ish sidecar.

That being said: these "budget" models...:
https://dayton.craigslist.org/mcd/d/2017-royal-enfield-bullet/6551542316.html

...use the Austrian designed UCE unit engine (with fuel injection) in the old 350cc chassis from the 1950's. It has disc brakes and modern conventional forks but it will feel and handle like an old bike. it's 29hp and 30 ft/lbs torque so it will tow a sidecar down two lanes just fine (might not want to chance the highway).

I'm not saying it's the answer to what you are seeking, just encouraging you to go in with an open mind about it and see if you like it.

That old one you posted the link to would be interesting enough for me to get off may ass and go look at it. I wasn't factoring in the vintage title, but now that you mention it.. 25yrs and older here you can get collector plates if the bike is decent, unmolested, and has period accessories. They are a little forgiving on mufflers. You can plate/insure them for cheap. I won't say how much or Trials and Woodsman will shit themselves. As far as vintage versus a new one goes, I guess its like taking in a stray dog as apposed to getting a new one with papers from the breeder. The only thing I know for sure is that whatever I drag home, it can't be in boxes. If you are a fan after working with them, then that's a good sign btw.