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Call whatever you like. It doesn't matter. Its a BSA Gold Star, a Matchless G50, Manx Norton, 7R Ajay. Buy the name and stick it on the tank. At least when the Summerfied brothers made a Manx Norton it looked ike an effin Norton!
 

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What an ill conceived abomination. With Indian having more lives than a cat and all of them recently being short, you think that he would have realized it was not so much a dream as a nightmare. I visited Melbourne a few years ago and spent a bunch of time talking to Terry Prince's offsider Ron Valentine (IIRC) with super sized dreams of bring Vincent back from the dead. I also knew one of the investors from one of the Indian resurrections and those numbers made no sense either.

As for Excelsior Henderson, words fail me. I met the Hanlons a couple of times and flew up to MN on my dollar to talk to them about that dream gone bad and there was no way that was ever going to work either.

It is technically possible to build a new brand out of a dead marque - witness, Ducati (not dead but on life support), Triumph, Benelli, MV and of those only John Bloor managed to really make it work.

To me the idea of a poorly styled bike designed to look like an old dead dinosaur with a modern engine can only work if there is a market, huge investment and commitment and an individual at the helm with an unwavering dedication to the vision of a something new but with links to the past. John Bloor saw what he could do with the name and to build on some of the old styling cues without allowing the rose colored mists of time to cloud his vision.

Triumph had a philosophical place to fill, as did Ducati and both exploited their niche markets.

The bike in question here had no reason to exist. It filled no market niche. It was a marque that many of us know of and talk of with reverence, but few of us owned one or had any real connection to the marque. The styling was not well executed, though I understand the design intent.

Mr Li might have been better off getting Terry Prince to work with say S&S and manufacturing a motor in the US and slipping it into an Egli or Manx replica chassis and offering small numbers for sale to enthusiasts who wanted to own something different. OK so I'm biased. Must be what brought me here :)
 

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What an ill conceived abomination. With Indian having more lives than a cat and all of them recently being short, you think that he would have realized it was not so much a dream as a nightmare. I visited Melbourne a few years ago and spent a bunch of time talking to Terry Prince's offsider Ron Valentine (IIRC) with super sized dreams of bring Vincent back from the dead. I also knew one of the investors from one of the Indian resurrections and those numbers made no sense either.

As for Excelsior Henderson, words fail me. I met the Hanlons a couple of times and flew up to MN on my dollar to talk to them about that dream gone bad and there was no way that was ever going to work either.

It is technically possible to build a new brand out of a dead marque - witness, Ducati (not dead but on life support), Triumph, Benelli, MV and of those only John Bloor managed to really make it work.

To me the idea of a poorly styled bike designed to look like an old dead dinosaur with a modern engine can only work if there is a market, huge investment and commitment and an individual at the helm with an unwavering dedication to the vision of a something new but with links to the past. John Bloor saw what he could do with the name and to build on some of the old styling cues without allowing the rose colored mists of time to cloud his vision.

Triumph had a philosophical place to fill, as did Ducati and both exploited their niche markets.

The bike in question here had no reason to exist. It filled no market niche. It was a marque that many of us know of and talk of with reverence, but few of us owned one or had any real connection to the marque. The styling was not well executed, though I understand the design intent.

Mr Li might have been better off getting Terry Prince to work with say S&S and manufacturing a motor in the US and slipping it into an Egli or Manx replica chassis and offering small numbers for sale to enthusiasts who wanted to own something different. OK so I'm biased. Must be what brought me here :)
 

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here are a few things to think about:

Initially Bernard Li looked into making his own engines for vincent. What he discovered was that it was going to be too expensive to mass produce initially. I think given a long enough time line he would have gone back to that. one of the hardest parts he was facing was getting the Vincent motor to meet emissions, plus at that price point people were expecting fuel injection which is really expensive to devlop properly.

He also self financed the whole deal. Dreer had investors, Indian had investors, Li opened his wallet. That is enthusiast dedication. A lot of people gave him a lot of crap about that, but in the end he didn't want to have to dilute his bike based on the whim of non motorcycle people with money. to go into production he would need investors however so if he sorted the bike first there would be less compromises. it was a smart move.

A replica vincent will cost you more than $20K if you build it or buy it out of the spares that exist. Even still you still need original vincent serial numbers for the bike to be worth anything close to what a real vincent is worth.


The prototypes were built by Rousch industries, famous for tuner fords and racing. They really are pretty technologically advanced. The frame is constructed very much like the originals, with two sections bolted to the engine. Same goes for the rear suspension. I am not fond of the way it looks, but it certainly looks different.

Lots of bikes, espically english bikes didn't use their own engines or shared engines over a lot of brands, including Triumph and BSA (rocket 3 / triumph trident for example) Vincent didn't even use their own engines as a startup, and brough superior never made their own engines. Heck even honda outsources every once in a while (the honda hawk, with frame designed and initially built by ELF).

If Li took a harley clone motor, stuck it in an already used universally chassis, and did as little engineering as possible, I could see it being a case of brand engineering. Instead he took a hard to come by and often overlooked engine and designed a ground up chassis around it. hardly badge engineering.
 

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here are a few things to think about:

Initially Bernard Li looked into making his own engines for vincent. What he discovered was that it was going to be too expensive to mass produce initially. I think given a long enough time line he would have gone back to that. one of the hardest parts he was facing was getting the Vincent motor to meet emissions, plus at that price point people were expecting fuel injection which is really expensive to devlop properly.

He also self financed the whole deal. Dreer had investors, Indian had investors, Li opened his wallet. That is enthusiast dedication. A lot of people gave him a lot of crap about that, but in the end he didn't want to have to dilute his bike based on the whim of non motorcycle people with money. to go into production he would need investors however so if he sorted the bike first there would be less compromises. it was a smart move.

A replica vincent will cost you more than $20K if you build it or buy it out of the spares that exist. Even still you still need original vincent serial numbers for the bike to be worth anything close to what a real vincent is worth.


The prototypes were built by Rousch industries, famous for tuner fords and racing. They really are pretty technologically advanced. The frame is constructed very much like the originals, with two sections bolted to the engine. Same goes for the rear suspension. I am not fond of the way it looks, but it certainly looks different.

Lots of bikes, espically english bikes didn't use their own engines or shared engines over a lot of brands, including Triumph and BSA (rocket 3 / triumph trident for example) Vincent didn't even use their own engines as a startup, and brough superior never made their own engines. Heck even honda outsources every once in a while (the honda hawk, with frame designed and initially built by ELF).

If Li took a harley clone motor, stuck it in an already used universally chassis, and did as little engineering as possible, I could see it being a case of brand engineering. Instead he took a hard to come by and often overlooked engine and designed a ground up chassis around it. hardly badge engineering.
 

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http://www.vincentmotors.com/

I think I agree with Geeto, although BSA/Triumph component sharing occurred during the last dying gasp of the British industry. Rocket III looks to be little other than a re-badged Trident, just to keep the marque alive. I prefer the phase I Vincent prototype, but it wasn't very distinctive looking - sort of what one would expect a new Vincent to look like and nothing more. I saw one of the prototypes in person a copuple years ago, at Battle of the Brits here in Detroit. Looked really good. Carbon fiber tank was nice touch, IMHO. From what I recall reading about Li, he was trying to develop an ultimate sport tourer, more along the lines of a BMW. I liked the bikes well enough, and like the Dreer Norton, I was disappointed in the failure of this venture. I think both were on the right track with brand new designs, for better or worse.

Geet, my understanding is that VOC would sell you parts to build a new Vincent as a kit, but you had to contract a "certified" mechanic to assemble it, price estimates hovering around $50k for the assembled bike, including labor. And they had a limited number for sale. Also, it was my understanding that they didn't have engine cases available, but one could source them from somebody in Australia, who was machining new ones. Aside from the engine cases, VOC sells every part for the bike.

As for price on the prototypes... I expect them to sell pretty high, being a footnote in the history of a very storied marque, regardless of the quality of the design. After all, there's only 4 of them in existence, and all completely hand built, aside from outsourced motors.
 

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http://www.vincentmotors.com/

I think I agree with Geeto, although BSA/Triumph component sharing occurred during the last dying gasp of the British industry. Rocket III looks to be little other than a re-badged Trident, just to keep the marque alive. I prefer the phase I Vincent prototype, but it wasn't very distinctive looking - sort of what one would expect a new Vincent to look like and nothing more. I saw one of the prototypes in person a copuple years ago, at Battle of the Brits here in Detroit. Looked really good. Carbon fiber tank was nice touch, IMHO. From what I recall reading about Li, he was trying to develop an ultimate sport tourer, more along the lines of a BMW. I liked the bikes well enough, and like the Dreer Norton, I was disappointed in the failure of this venture. I think both were on the right track with brand new designs, for better or worse.

Geet, my understanding is that VOC would sell you parts to build a new Vincent as a kit, but you had to contract a "certified" mechanic to assemble it, price estimates hovering around $50k for the assembled bike, including labor. And they had a limited number for sale. Also, it was my understanding that they didn't have engine cases available, but one could source them from somebody in Australia, who was machining new ones. Aside from the engine cases, VOC sells every part for the bike.

As for price on the prototypes... I expect them to sell pretty high, being a footnote in the history of a very storied marque, regardless of the quality of the design. After all, there's only 4 of them in existence, and all completely hand built, aside from outsourced motors.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
SOOOOO - back to the original question, how much?

If you can buy a repro - OG Vincent for $50k, does the rarity of these drive the mark past that?
 

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Discussion Starter #33
SOOOOO - back to the original question, how much?

If you can buy a repro - OG Vincent for $50k, does the rarity of these drive the mark past that?
 

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judey,

the VOC I think wants you to start with original cases because you would be replacing a bike that was not in existence anymore, rather than building a full tilt replica. You can buy egli vincents for $40K but they are more like vincatis or norvins than accurate vincents.

http://www.godet-motorcycles.com/egli/egli.htm

not having the engine cases is a big deal since the bike is built around the engine. From my limited understanding of vincents you can't really have a vincent enginless roller because everything bolts to the engine. the frame is in two sections, a front and a back frame, that require the engine to connect and be structurally sound.

if you really want a faithful repro with a modern chassis you can buy an irving vincent:

http://www.irvingvincent.com/bikes

and while people seem to have a lot of praise for these things they are race bikes only and I highly doubt in this incarnation they will ever be street bikes. When you look at the hoops a company like HD has to jump through to keep an aircooled V-twin emissions compliant, trying to get a 60 year old (albeit updated) engine making respectable hp, reliable, and emissions compliant looks pretty daunting.
 

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judey,

the VOC I think wants you to start with original cases because you would be replacing a bike that was not in existence anymore, rather than building a full tilt replica. You can buy egli vincents for $40K but they are more like vincatis or norvins than accurate vincents.

http://www.godet-motorcycles.com/egli/egli.htm

not having the engine cases is a big deal since the bike is built around the engine. From my limited understanding of vincents you can't really have a vincent enginless roller because everything bolts to the engine. the frame is in two sections, a front and a back frame, that require the engine to connect and be structurally sound.

if you really want a faithful repro with a modern chassis you can buy an irving vincent:

http://www.irvingvincent.com/bikes

and while people seem to have a lot of praise for these things they are race bikes only and I highly doubt in this incarnation they will ever be street bikes. When you look at the hoops a company like HD has to jump through to keep an aircooled V-twin emissions compliant, trying to get a 60 year old (albeit updated) engine making respectable hp, reliable, and emissions compliant looks pretty daunting.
 

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Several companies in the 20s,30s, and later supplied engines to maufacturers. J.A.P., Villiers being the most notable. Sturmey Archer supplied transmissions to damn near every English manufacturer. It was an accepted practice from the start of motorcycling right up to the late 60s. Bernard Li using a Honda engine and a Roush (?) manufacured frame is not that unusual. Naming it after an icon of motorcyles is. I have heard the arguement that had Vincent been around today they might well look like that. Very true. Its pure speculation to try and figure what would Phil Vincent be designing if he were alive and the Vincent motorcycle still in production.
 

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Several companies in the 20s,30s, and later supplied engines to maufacturers. J.A.P., Villiers being the most notable. Sturmey Archer supplied transmissions to damn near every English manufacturer. It was an accepted practice from the start of motorcycling right up to the late 60s. Bernard Li using a Honda engine and a Roush (?) manufacured frame is not that unusual. Naming it after an icon of motorcyles is. I have heard the arguement that had Vincent been around today they might well look like that. Very true. Its pure speculation to try and figure what would Phil Vincent be designing if he were alive and the Vincent motorcycle still in production.
 

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I highly doubt that if vincent survived to the modern age that they would look the way they do. Rather they probably would look very much like a GSXR or a triumph Daytona. I am not even sure how HD survived they way they did, and some would say they didn't since they were bought out twice and on the verge of bankruptcy more than that.

If I had to guess what these prototypes would sell for I would say around $40K. They are a part of motorcycling history in their own right despite being universally hated. It probably cost Li $100k per bike to build them in 2001-2002, and had they gone into production I believe Li was looking to charge $20K per bike. If you really look at them there is a lot of neat stuff going on like under seat fuel tank, Penske rear mono shock, and lots of cnc milled pieces. There is also a lot of stylistic crap on the bike that I ma sure was put there just to justify the high cost of the bike like LED taillights, Projector headlamps, and carbon fiber.

Still the bike was built during the money boom of motorcycling during the early 2000s. If you look at what else was available during that time period the vincent doesn't seem too weird:

MH900e at $20K, ducati sold every single one despite horrible build quality


First Generation confederate Hellcat at $25K. these were excellent bikes in their own right and almost everyone sold


In both the above cases the bikes used pre existing off the shelf motors (S&S for the Hellcat, Ducati's aircooled DS monster motor for the MH900e <----$20K for a bike that used the same exact motor as a $10K monster for shame ducati).
 

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I highly doubt that if vincent survived to the modern age that they would look the way they do. Rather they probably would look very much like a GSXR or a triumph Daytona. I am not even sure how HD survived they way they did, and some would say they didn't since they were bought out twice and on the verge of bankruptcy more than that.

If I had to guess what these prototypes would sell for I would say around $40K. They are a part of motorcycling history in their own right despite being universally hated. It probably cost Li $100k per bike to build them in 2001-2002, and had they gone into production I believe Li was looking to charge $20K per bike. If you really look at them there is a lot of neat stuff going on like under seat fuel tank, Penske rear mono shock, and lots of cnc milled pieces. There is also a lot of stylistic crap on the bike that I ma sure was put there just to justify the high cost of the bike like LED taillights, Projector headlamps, and carbon fiber.

Still the bike was built during the money boom of motorcycling during the early 2000s. If you look at what else was available during that time period the vincent doesn't seem too weird:

MH900e at $20K, ducati sold every single one despite horrible build quality


First Generation confederate Hellcat at $25K. these were excellent bikes in their own right and almost everyone sold


In both the above cases the bikes used pre existing off the shelf motors (S&S for the Hellcat, Ducati's aircooled DS monster motor for the MH900e <----$20K for a bike that used the same exact motor as a $10K monster for shame ducati).
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Confederate has some wicked engineering going on with their recent bikes. Cant say I like the result, but I love the ideas.

I never really think of regulations like emission standards and such, that really does explain a lot about where all the marvels of the past have gone.
 
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