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Discussion Starter #41
Confederate has some wicked engineering going on with their recent bikes. Cant say I like the result, but I love the ideas.

I never really think of regulations like emission standards and such, that really does explain a lot about where all the marvels of the past have gone.
 

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Its difficult to guess what a Vincent would look like if Phil Vincent was still alive and Vincents were being manufactured. Vincent had some very rigid ideas as to what he wanted to make. He swore by his "girdrauic" front forks. I think his words were that teescopic forks were flimsy and flexible and messed up the steering geometry. Other things about frame design etc were also "rigidly" set in his mind. He did embrace fiberglass in its early years, using it for the fairings on the Black Prince model. BUT he insisted that the fiberglass fairings be stove enameled like the frames. And it took a fair chumk of convincing to get him to believe you can't throw a fiberglass fairing in a 400 deg. stoving oven. It would take a fairly vivid imagination to work out what a Vincent woud look like today were it around.
 

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Its difficult to guess what a Vincent would look like if Phil Vincent was still alive and Vincents were being manufactured. Vincent had some very rigid ideas as to what he wanted to make. He swore by his "girdrauic" front forks. I think his words were that teescopic forks were flimsy and flexible and messed up the steering geometry. Other things about frame design etc were also "rigidly" set in his mind. He did embrace fiberglass in its early years, using it for the fairings on the Black Prince model. BUT he insisted that the fiberglass fairings be stove enameled like the frames. And it took a fair chumk of convincing to get him to believe you can't throw a fiberglass fairing in a 400 deg. stoving oven. It would take a fairly vivid imagination to work out what a Vincent woud look like today were it around.
 

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What a Vincent would look like today were Philip Vincent or Phil Irving alive is irrevelant. Both are dead, and the brand has been sold. From what I've read, at the time of Vincent's demise, they were not "all that", and Vincent was beginning to aim toward more of a sport touring machine. If you look at Li's website, at the touring model, that looks like it could swallow up a lot of US pavement... but not interstate pavement. I really love old Vincents, but I have to say, considering the direction Philip Vincent was heading toward the end, the new touring model is not too far off the Black Prince, and relatively pretty. Compare it to an early 2000s reborn Indian, and tell me what there is to complain about? Tell me you wouldn't trade in your BMW RS for one.
 

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What a Vincent would look like today were Philip Vincent or Phil Irving alive is irrevelant. Both are dead, and the brand has been sold. From what I've read, at the time of Vincent's demise, they were not "all that", and Vincent was beginning to aim toward more of a sport touring machine. If you look at Li's website, at the touring model, that looks like it could swallow up a lot of US pavement... but not interstate pavement. I really love old Vincents, but I have to say, considering the direction Philip Vincent was heading toward the end, the new touring model is not too far off the Black Prince, and relatively pretty. Compare it to an early 2000s reborn Indian, and tell me what there is to complain about? Tell me you wouldn't trade in your BMW RS for one.
 

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I'm just curious. It has to be remembered that europe in the 50 was still struggling after WW2. The recession of the 30s, WW2 in the 40s, and recovery in the 50s. I remember reading an aricle and in it it said that the British moto of that time was "export or die". A friend put it better about that time. "Everyting was built down to a price". Evan Wilcox was asked to restore a immediate post WW2 tank. I think it was from an Ajay Porcupine (but open to correction on that). The alloy tank was made from WW2 fighter plane wing covering. A scarcity of material made it difficult to build exactly what you wanted. So you did your best with what was available. Vincent and the rest did a pretty good job.
 

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I'm just curious. It has to be remembered that europe in the 50 was still struggling after WW2. The recession of the 30s, WW2 in the 40s, and recovery in the 50s. I remember reading an aricle and in it it said that the British moto of that time was "export or die". A friend put it better about that time. "Everyting was built down to a price". Evan Wilcox was asked to restore a immediate post WW2 tank. I think it was from an Ajay Porcupine (but open to correction on that). The alloy tank was made from WW2 fighter plane wing covering. A scarcity of material made it difficult to build exactly what you wanted. So you did your best with what was available. Vincent and the rest did a pretty good job.
 

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So far the only two companies that can show retro bikes work are Harley Davidson and Triumph. Harley does it by selling t-shirts and merch more than building bikes. triumph does it by having a diverse line and keeping development costs low on the bike so it is cheap to mfg. although ducati did not lose money on the Sport Classics line they are not successful sellers, dealers are choked with them and can't move them even at a discount (which is a shame because they are wonderful bikes, much better than the Bonneville). Royal Enfield hasn't had the chance yet because their bikes are just coming to the US market with what consumers in the 500cc class want, they are successful in india not because they are retro but because they are the fastest new bike in india and a national institution.

If phil vincent was alive that is one thing, but I am just talking about the company surviving the 60's and 70's where the brits went tits up and the japs ruled the consumer motorcycle world. Look at norton, in the 90s they have rotary sport bikes (which are really nice bikes by the way), and really only the "vintage people" hated them, the cops loved them enough to make them police bikes. Had they built something similar to a ducati supersport I think they would have done much better, but the rotary was enough weird to scare people away.

the motorcycle world is littered with the corpses of coulda, shoulda, woulda. this is just one more body in the wood pile.

P.s. I have always heard that Bernard Li was committed to the idea that his resurrected road bike would need to be able to do 150mph at least off the show room floor. I think this was one of the reasons he chose the RC51 130hp mill when he figured it to be too expensive to produce his own powerplant.
 

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So far the only two companies that can show retro bikes work are Harley Davidson and Triumph. Harley does it by selling t-shirts and merch more than building bikes. triumph does it by having a diverse line and keeping development costs low on the bike so it is cheap to mfg. although ducati did not lose money on the Sport Classics line they are not successful sellers, dealers are choked with them and can't move them even at a discount (which is a shame because they are wonderful bikes, much better than the Bonneville). Royal Enfield hasn't had the chance yet because their bikes are just coming to the US market with what consumers in the 500cc class want, they are successful in india not because they are retro but because they are the fastest new bike in india and a national institution.

If phil vincent was alive that is one thing, but I am just talking about the company surviving the 60's and 70's where the brits went tits up and the japs ruled the consumer motorcycle world. Look at norton, in the 90s they have rotary sport bikes (which are really nice bikes by the way), and really only the "vintage people" hated them, the cops loved them enough to make them police bikes. Had they built something similar to a ducati supersport I think they would have done much better, but the rotary was enough weird to scare people away.

the motorcycle world is littered with the corpses of coulda, shoulda, woulda. this is just one more body in the wood pile.

P.s. I have always heard that Bernard Li was committed to the idea that his resurrected road bike would need to be able to do 150mph at least off the show room floor. I think this was one of the reasons he chose the RC51 130hp mill when he figured it to be too expensive to produce his own powerplant.
 

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I have always heard that england suffered from the effects of WWII in the form of shortages well into the early 1970s. I am not english so I can't attest to this but more than one person has said to me first hand that even in the 70's alloy was hard to come by and people were still salvaging german fighter planes in the country side (that last part may be exaggerated).

I don't know why people get so wrapped up in "brand loyalty" anymore. This year I had a real change of heart about this myself when Pontiac, a brand near and dear to my heart went tits up. I thought about it and you know what, who the fuck cares if people are brand or badge engineering, at least they are making something in that brands name. Pontiac hadn't been pontiac since the 1970s but you know what? the G8 GT was one of the best cars GM made in the last 5 years, and the new GTO (despite its rental car looks) is an excellent car to the point where I think about picking up a used one from time to time. I used to think "oh well they are just trying to take advantage of me and my own loyalties to x brand" when ever the topic of badge engineering is brought up, but now I think "you know, the only way things evolve is if they get made, so make it all. If it doesn't sell then they will remake it or it will be scrapped and someone will try again. Eventually you will get someone who knows what they are doing and get it right."

As americans have we become so arrogant that we thing they have to get it right on the first try or not at all? no wonder people buy boring shit box foreign cars.

I could write all day about GM and what they owe the american people, but really at the end of the day I would rather have a chevy powered pontiac in the market place than none at all.
 

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I have always heard that england suffered from the effects of WWII in the form of shortages well into the early 1970s. I am not english so I can't attest to this but more than one person has said to me first hand that even in the 70's alloy was hard to come by and people were still salvaging german fighter planes in the country side (that last part may be exaggerated).

I don't know why people get so wrapped up in "brand loyalty" anymore. This year I had a real change of heart about this myself when Pontiac, a brand near and dear to my heart went tits up. I thought about it and you know what, who the fuck cares if people are brand or badge engineering, at least they are making something in that brands name. Pontiac hadn't been pontiac since the 1970s but you know what? the G8 GT was one of the best cars GM made in the last 5 years, and the new GTO (despite its rental car looks) is an excellent car to the point where I think about picking up a used one from time to time. I used to think "oh well they are just trying to take advantage of me and my own loyalties to x brand" when ever the topic of badge engineering is brought up, but now I think "you know, the only way things evolve is if they get made, so make it all. If it doesn't sell then they will remake it or it will be scrapped and someone will try again. Eventually you will get someone who knows what they are doing and get it right."

As americans have we become so arrogant that we thing they have to get it right on the first try or not at all? no wonder people buy boring shit box foreign cars.

I could write all day about GM and what they owe the american people, but really at the end of the day I would rather have a chevy powered pontiac in the market place than none at all.
 

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quote:After all, there's</u> only 4 of them in existence...


"...there ARE only 4 of them in existence..." Four is plural.

And in this context, "in existence" is not only wordy, but redundant.

"After all, only four exist." See?

Carry on.
 

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quote:After all, there's</u> only 4 of them in existence...


"...there ARE only 4 of them in existence..." Four is plural.

And in this context, "in existence" is not only wordy, but redundant.

"After all, only four exist." See?

Carry on.
 

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Material shortages and money plagued England for a long time after the war. Norton made a tansverse four for racing. Lack of money caused it to be shelved. The major castings still exist. Norton also came up with a rotary valve head for the Manx. Once again money and material stopped the project. Shame. Think what might have been. The Manx might have been a forgotten footote in M/C history.

Another thought. Are we "hating" the Li Vincent because it doesn't look like the Vincent we know and love?


By weslake at 2010-05-05
 

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Material shortages and money plagued England for a long time after the war. Norton made a tansverse four for racing. Lack of money caused it to be shelved. The major castings still exist. Norton also came up with a rotary valve head for the Manx. Once again money and material stopped the project. Shame. Think what might have been. The Manx might have been a forgotten footote in M/C history.

Another thought. Are we "hating" the Li Vincent because it doesn't look like the Vincent we know and love?


By weslake at 2010-05-05
 

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Discussion Starter #56
I dont hate it, and like Judey said, Id ride the shit outta that touring model. Cause Im fat and lazy and it looks low, comfortable, and fast.

I dont hate it at all. But when I think Vincent, I think engine first.

So now looking around their website, that prototype phase 1, with the old motor and new frame setup, gave me the tinglys.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
I dont hate it, and like Judey said, Id ride the shit outta that touring model. Cause Im fat and lazy and it looks low, comfortable, and fast.

I dont hate it at all. But when I think Vincent, I think engine first.

So now looking around their website, that prototype phase 1, with the old motor and new frame setup, gave me the tinglys.
 
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