[robertob]

I just found out that Boretech is now making ignitions for the CB450 - just wondering if any of you guys are running their CB350 ignition and if so, if you have any feedback. It's steep at nearly $400, though.

 

[jbranson]

It looks like a stupid high price for just another battery powered, cam driven electronic ignition. You can get the same performance with a freakin Pertronics volkswagen ignition for about $30 and a little work.
Can't tell if it's CDI or not, if it is you'd need new coils too.

$400 is close to the price of a full race PVL Mag/CDI ignition, which is crank driven, not battery and includes the coils.
JohnnyB

 

[ROSKO]

The system looks pretty sweet. The adjustable advance curve would be great to have. My 450 is only happy at 7000-9000 rpm, I'm sure that 'sweet spot' could be expanded. Plus you get the easy install (it does use the stock coils) and all that jazz... just too pricey for me. Can't justify an ignition that cost more than the bike. The built in timing light is pretty cool too.


That being said why would anyone run that system vs. a pvl on a racer?


JB, How was the vacation?

BORN TO LURK, FORCED TO WORK.
www.NYCvinMoto.com
www.VinMoto.org

 

[robertob]

Thanks - You're right the price is really steep. I like the electronic advance curve, but I'm pretty sure it is NOT CDI.

Actually for that price you could buy a Microsquirt and have programmable ignition and EFI if you want to get crazy.

Here's another from Germany for 299 euros or about $350 these days - so no cheaper:

http://www.elektronik-sachse.de/ZDG3/frset_zdg_de.htm


And the Pazon system from the UK which also has a programmed advance curve BUT includes coils - at 240 GBP it's over $500

http://www.pazon.com/pages/product_detail.asp?s=ZQZIA2hVZVNzW2hpQnEG


So what's required to use the Pertronix pickups? I've used them on a Corvair I had, but never thought about adapting them to something else.

I've seen the GL1000 dyna conversions, too, I know a local guy with one in his bomber. Looks pretty straightforward compared to some of the other stuff.

Edited by - robertob on Dec 27 2006 1:45:57 PM

 

[jbranson]

Robert,
The pertronix is just a solid state replacement for the points. Function in most ways just like the points. You just have to come up with a way to adapt the trigger wheel to your application and fabricate a mounting plate for the sensor.
It's not so much an ignition as a hall effect switch.

These ignitions in the posts all look like quality pieces of work, but for my money appear to be "street" ignitions....at least the units that are cam triggered. I noticed the UK system uses PVL coils.

They systems would be worth it if their curve was programmable. The curves they had posted would be worthless for most race applications and some were single step curves.

King of the hill is a pitlane programmable, Mag/CDI, Crank triggered ignition. PVL has one....probably set you back about $800 all said and done....... Yes I'm trying to get one set up on my bike this winter
JohnnyB

 

[ttilghman]

well, i guess, in light of JBs comments, i'll sheepishly admit to using boretech's ignition. i went for the cheaper setup without the curve for the track, so it's set to full advance from start-up which seems fine for racing (no more kick starting). i've been happy compared to wet points, but obviously a crank driven, no battery system would be preferred. i made my change in the middle of my first season, was having problems getting PVL components, and had seen some folks having lots of trouble with the PVL systems in the pits. oh, and i changed my coils as matter of course.

-tt

 

[joe c]

ok, fine, the pvl is 400. but thats just the start. if youre going to run an oil block off plate, you have to get that machined or pay for one thats already been figured out. then you either have to machine the case halves flat, drill and tap them for tiny screws, and get a seal for the crank to install the plate, or pile loads of rtv shit under the plate to seal the cases. (buffs method). by the way, his block off plate sucks. its huge and looks like hell when its done in my opinion. if anyones running a pvl, i have a guy who makes the plates a perfect fit, small, and ready to go. you do need to buy a seal, a stock metric seal, machine the cases, and drill and tap for the screws. i have photos of mine. ill post them. the plate runs another 80 bucks or so. the machining work you can do yourself if you have a mill or know someone who does. its pretty easy. and the screws are mcmaster items. but its not quite that cut and dry do it right. it will end up probably costing you in the $800+ range when everything is said and done. but no battery. oh yeah, then you need to have the spare coils on hand all of the time.

jc

 

[jbranson]

Anybody that screws up a PVL is a retard....and yeah that includes all you freakin jamooks, my friends and my mother. I have three of the systems installed on 3 of my bikes and have never had a single failure of any component and never had one not start and run. Also installed one on a bike I built for a customer and it's never failed once. All you gotta do is follow the instructions.

Anyway...my point is, a $400 cam triggered, inductive, hall effect, 12v battery powered ignition functions exactly the same as a $30 pertronics unit. (Assuming no advance function). It's possible you might get a slightly hotter spark with the expensive units, and maybe a more stable dwell time. But it's still just a point replacement system subject to cam chain whip and the inaccuracy of a cam driven system. It's certainly better than points, but a long way from worth $400. Maybe a viable solution for someone with plenty of money and without the resources to do some fabrication. Hell I've had more problems with Dyna systems than a PVL.

Yes you would have to come up with more cash to mount a PVL system, not completely necessary to seal the cases though...although I'd recommend it. At least the mounting plate comes with the Buff Harsh systems. And those damn CB350's with their 180 degree cranks require basically two PVL systems...that's why they cost so much.

There are similar point replacement systems out there for quite a bit less than $400. I'm just, you know...sayin.

Here's the block off plates I designed, I had ten of them made up at once. Just a flat 3mm plate with a seal carrier.
JohnnyB

 

[ttilghman]

i think i paid $250 for the cam driven ignition without advance? yeah, basically the same thing as the petronics kit in my old chevy.

-tt

 

[jbranson]

$250 ain't nearly as bad. For a bolt in unit, with wiring and nice heavy duty electronics like the Boretech. A dyna system would probably end up costing you almost as much and you'd have to fab shit for it too.
The pertronix is cool only because it's $30. Now some people are selling pertronix bolt in kits for less than $100 now and you probably still have to fiddle with stuff to make it work.
JohnnyB

 

[fuzzybutt]

i put the dyna ignition and 3 ohm coils in my 750 last year when i was at AMI, got 6 more hp at the wheels between a properly tuned,timed,set points and the dyna. a little less than 300 total for the ignition and coils. best money i ever spent on my bike.

some people are like slinkies, basically useless but they still make me smile when i push them down the stairs

 

[FR]

This is all very interesting, 'cause I'm gonna need to come up with an ignition soon for the interminable CB450 project. Don't want to spend even $250 on the ignition, but I'm willing to do some fab work, and I'll also be willing to spend a little for something that somebody else has figured out...
Soooo, where are these people selling bolt in pertronics kits? Got a name or web address or anything?

FR

 

[joe c]

jbs right, no you dont have to seal the cases up. but why have the mess of the oil in there if it doesnt have to be. plenty of people race 350s with the oil bathing it. have you seen the way buffs pvl setup works? its a mess. but yes, he does send the block off/mounting plate. he'll tell you to just rtv it right to the cases, which is fine if youre not doing a tear down. since i tore mine down, i did the machine work etc etc to make it all nice neat and clean.

hey jb, why is your plate so big??? is there a huge hole for the oil to pass through? on the 35o its tiny, about the size of a pencil. filled it with epoxy. then of course the bearing which the seal and plate take care of.

i have heard of the coils going bad on them but thats it. but then again, there isnt much else to go bad. im pretty sure they need to be isolated to help prevent them from failing.

jc

 

[ROSKO]

FR, If you're lookin' to spend $0- do the experiment with Hoyt's system. I have all the files and can e-mail 'em to you. Articles all CB450 specific and made with stock parts. I think you would need to add CDI coils... shoot me an e-mail if you are interested.

BORN TO LURK, FORCED TO WORK.
www.NYCvinMoto.com
www.VinMoto.org

 

[jbranson]

JC,
On the 175 the entire side of the engine case/ engine cover is open to oil. In numerous places it's open to the interior of the crankcase. Even the left side crank bearing is open and visible if the engine cover is off. This plate sandwiches between the engine cases and the engine cover...it's a cinch to use, stock gasket on the inside, nothing between it and the cover. Beside grinding a couple of small lumps off the crankcase (five minutes) it's a bolt on part.

Details here: http://www.jrbranson.com/HondaRacer/CB175/Ignition.htm

Real simple to have made once you have the CAD drawings EXACTLY right down to about .005" I just laid an engine cover on my scanner and imported the file in real size into the CAD program and then traced the outline.
JohnnyB

 

[joe c]

huh, i didnt know it was that open. kinda cool. you can see the crank. pretty minimalistic. for the 350, its just a donut, similar to what your seal carrier looks like. so youre making a round, flanged thing, with a hole perfectly centered. it kinda has to be made cnc'd or turned. there is one little oil hole in the bottom of the case that gets filled in, but thats it. ill get a pic this weekend to post.

me

 

[FR]

quote:
FR, If you're lookin' to spend $0- do the experiment with Hoyt's system. I have all the files and can e-mail 'em to you. Articles all CB450 specific and made with stock parts. I think you would need to add CDI coils... shoot me an e-mail if you are interested.

BORN TO LURK, FORCED TO WORK.
www.NYCvinMoto.com
www.VinMoto.org

Done

 

[nf343vr]

Here are my two cents. I run the Newtronics on my 450, sad part is they may or may not be available. Newtronics went bankrupt but a company called Autocar was supposed to take over production of the newtronics ignitions in the UK. It is a "street" ignition I guess you could say because it does run off the cam and does retain the mechanical advance, which could be welded to run full advanvce all the time. It used to be fairly inexpensive, well below $200. You would have to check to see if they are in production again and what the new price is.
I have found them very reliable and they can run with a variety of coils. I have done the dual-plug conversion (you want to wake-up a 450? this is the way to go)and run VFR750 coils.
I hope they are back in production again because I would buy more!!

KCampbellNH

 

[UngaWunga]

If you don't mind keeping the battery, you can bolt on a Dyna S ignition from a GL1000, and that will get rid of the points. That, and Hoyt's ignition stator mod to get rid of the battery, might be the cheapest solution.

I'll post the stuff on the USCRA website when I get back home.

 

[jbranson]

The Newtronics UK website is still up...making note of the new ownership. Prices around $180 US it looks like ( 89 pounds uk). Always liked the look of those systems.

Hey...nothing wrong with running a "street" electronic system on the race track. I'm just saying if you spend $400 you are getting close to the price of a really nice race system....so spend the extra dough and get the real deal.
JohnnyB