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Tony, you know you can't fight teh system - you have to work within it. get an attorney/lawyer/solicitor and get your evidence and work off your anger before you get in a court room. You need a solid story and you need to be calm and appear to be a reasonable person put into an unreasonable position by the wanker I mean complainant.

If you have the email trail bring that but remember that if you told him that you would retaliate to his threats, he or the system may use that against you. Your record is unfortunate because they will claim that it shows prior history of violence and try to build a case that you are a violent person rather than the reality which is more complex than that.

This isn't GBH but it's still serious, so get a GOOD lawyer on the job ASAP.

Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter #82
i had a lawyer on the case with the 1st hour after the incident, everything that can be done is been done, im not just sitting back and letting it happen .
 

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Discussion Starter #83
i had a lawyer on the case with the 1st hour after the incident, everything that can be done is been done, im not just sitting back and letting it happen .
 

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Teazer is right about getting a good attorney. But I don't think Tony comes off as being too angry. It looks to me like Tony had exactly the right amount of anger. Dude comes up and punches you in the back, you have to kick his ass.

The legal argument in this case is probably not going to be about whether Tony was right to be angry. Of course he was! Instead, it's probably going to center on whether Tony could have somehow avoided kicking the dude's ass.

See, Tony's case is based on self-defense. Self-defense works like this: you are allowed to defend yourself when you are under attack. You can even respond with somewhat greater force than is being used on you. In other words, if a dude punches you in the kidneys and shoves you, you get to clock him in the mug, or even stomp on his head. Whatever it takes to stop his attack.

But the minute the dude stops attacking, your right to self-defense stops. In other words, a dude can walk up and punch you in the kidneys, and then run away, (or just "disengage" i.e. step back and indicate he doesn't want to fight anymore), and you can't go after him and beat the shit out of him like he deserves. You have to call the police, and let them take it from there.

In Tony's situation, the dude punched him in the back, and then shoved him against the counter. At that point, Tony immediately had the right to clock the dude and stop his attack. But Tony didn't do that; instead, he shuffled him outside and then decked him. As soon as the dude stopped attacking, Tony was no longer allowed to hit him under the legal protection of self-defense. By taking a moment to shuffle the dude outside before hitting him, Tony may have lost his right to claim self-defense. Sucks, doesn't it? Tony was being a decent guy all around: he took the fight outside to protect the pet shop and any bystanders from getting injured. But by keeping his cool for a few moments to take the fight outside, he might have lost his legal defense. At least that's how it would work in CA.

If I were defending Tony, I would try to get some evidence that the dude was still putting up a fight when they got outdoors. Failing that, I would argue that by shuffling the dude outdoors, Tony was acting in defense of others (bystanders) or in defense of property. Those are much weaker defenses than self-defense, but they might do the job.
 

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Teazer is right about getting a good attorney. But I don't think Tony comes off as being too angry. It looks to me like Tony had exactly the right amount of anger. Dude comes up and punches you in the back, you have to kick his ass.

The legal argument in this case is probably not going to be about whether Tony was right to be angry. Of course he was! Instead, it's probably going to center on whether Tony could have somehow avoided kicking the dude's ass.

See, Tony's case is based on self-defense. Self-defense works like this: you are allowed to defend yourself when you are under attack. You can even respond with somewhat greater force than is being used on you. In other words, if a dude punches you in the kidneys and shoves you, you get to clock him in the mug, or even stomp on his head. Whatever it takes to stop his attack.

But the minute the dude stops attacking, your right to self-defense stops. In other words, a dude can walk up and punch you in the kidneys, and then run away, (or just "disengage" i.e. step back and indicate he doesn't want to fight anymore), and you can't go after him and beat the shit out of him like he deserves. You have to call the police, and let them take it from there.

In Tony's situation, the dude punched him in the back, and then shoved him against the counter. At that point, Tony immediately had the right to clock the dude and stop his attack. But Tony didn't do that; instead, he shuffled him outside and then decked him. As soon as the dude stopped attacking, Tony was no longer allowed to hit him under the legal protection of self-defense. By taking a moment to shuffle the dude outside before hitting him, Tony may have lost his right to claim self-defense. Sucks, doesn't it? Tony was being a decent guy all around: he took the fight outside to protect the pet shop and any bystanders from getting injured. But by keeping his cool for a few moments to take the fight outside, he might have lost his legal defense. At least that's how it would work in CA.

If I were defending Tony, I would try to get some evidence that the dude was still putting up a fight when they got outdoors. Failing that, I would argue that by shuffling the dude outdoors, Tony was acting in defense of others (bystanders) or in defense of property. Those are much weaker defenses than self-defense, but they might do the job.
 

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Jesus! This is nuts. I'm surprised it's gotten to this for Tony (which totally sucks by the way). Where I live, the police don't really seem to care much about anything unless it happens right in front of them. One of my places got robbed a few weeks ago and between video, other employees giving supported verbal accounts of conversations, etc.... I'm 90% sure it was one of my employees, and the cops haven't done shit. People get in fights all the time in bars my friends own and nothing ever comes of it. They just chalk it up to people acting like people.
 

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Jesus! This is nuts. I'm surprised it's gotten to this for Tony (which totally sucks by the way). Where I live, the police don't really seem to care much about anything unless it happens right in front of them. One of my places got robbed a few weeks ago and between video, other employees giving supported verbal accounts of conversations, etc.... I'm 90% sure it was one of my employees, and the cops haven't done shit. People get in fights all the time in bars my friends own and nothing ever comes of it. They just chalk it up to people acting like people.
 

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The English practically invented unjustly incarcerated.

See Thomas Malory, Oscar Wilde, etc....

I am not saying Tony is of their caliber of unjustly accused, just that the English system of criminal punishment has a historical precedent of being a tad unfair.
 

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The English practically invented unjustly incarcerated.

See Thomas Malory, Oscar Wilde, etc....

I am not saying Tony is of their caliber of unjustly accused, just that the English system of criminal punishment has a historical precedent of being a tad unfair.
 

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My reference to anger was talking to how he appears in court. I wasn't making any comment about the actions, but rather to how he is characterized in court. If he's totally pissed off, then he will appear to be an angry person with a problem that normal law abiding folks should not have to deal with which is not how we see him or how he needs to appear in that court room.

And the English are obviously to blame for the fact that the US has a greater percentage of its population incarcerated than any other on the planet (if I understood the stats). The system today seems to me to bend over backwards to give criminals another go at life even when they don't deserve it and hold regular citizens to a higher level of behaviour.

Tony's best defense is probably to have his attorney turn up with a shit load of complaints about the OP showing him to be teh cowardly bully that he really is.
 

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My reference to anger was talking to how he appears in court. I wasn't making any comment about the actions, but rather to how he is characterized in court. If he's totally pissed off, then he will appear to be an angry person with a problem that normal law abiding folks should not have to deal with which is not how we see him or how he needs to appear in that court room.

And the English are obviously to blame for the fact that the US has a greater percentage of its population incarcerated than any other on the planet (if I understood the stats). The system today seems to me to bend over backwards to give criminals another go at life even when they don't deserve it and hold regular citizens to a higher level of behaviour.

Tony's best defense is probably to have his attorney turn up with a shit load of complaints about the OP showing him to be teh cowardly bully that he really is.
 

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Discussion Starter #92
quote:Originally posted by Teazer

My reference to anger was talking to how he appears in court. I wasn't making any comment about the actions, but rather to how he is characterized in court. If he's totally pissed off, then he will appear to be an angry person with a problem that normal law abiding folks should not have to deal with which is not how we see him or how he needs to appear in that court room.

And the English are obviously to blame for the fact that the US has a greater percentage of its population incarcerated than any other on the planet (if I understood the stats). The system today seems to me to bend over backwards to give criminals another go at life even when they don't deserve it and hold regular citizens to a higher level of behaviour.

Tony's best defense is probably to have his attorney turn up with a shit load of complaints about the OP showing him to be teh cowardly bully that he really is.
hmm, so turning up to court with a baseball bat isnt a good idea? only joking, im gonna be on my best behaviour and look nice and smart, lose the beard and the earings, hide my tats and speak calmly and politely. now ive just got 10 days to practise all that bullshit.
 

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Discussion Starter #93
quote:Originally posted by Teazer

My reference to anger was talking to how he appears in court. I wasn't making any comment about the actions, but rather to how he is characterized in court. If he's totally pissed off, then he will appear to be an angry person with a problem that normal law abiding folks should not have to deal with which is not how we see him or how he needs to appear in that court room.

And the English are obviously to blame for the fact that the US has a greater percentage of its population incarcerated than any other on the planet (if I understood the stats). The system today seems to me to bend over backwards to give criminals another go at life even when they don't deserve it and hold regular citizens to a higher level of behaviour.

Tony's best defense is probably to have his attorney turn up with a shit load of complaints about the OP showing him to be teh cowardly bully that he really is.
hmm, so turning up to court with a baseball bat isnt a good idea? only joking, im gonna be on my best behaviour and look nice and smart, lose the beard and the earings, hide my tats and speak calmly and politely. now ive just got 10 days to practise all that bullshit.
 

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quote:Originally posted by Teazer



And the English are obviously to blame for the fact that the US has a greater percentage of its population incarcerated than any other on the planet (if I understood the stats).
Yes they are, or did you forget that America and australia were both prison colonies and/or prison sentences? If you don't count the whole of Australia as a prison then yes we may have the highest percentage - I haven't looked at the numbers.

But more importantly out unjustly accused arent famous like the English. And Malory was falsely inprisioned before there ever was an America.....so yeah, invented it.
 

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quote:Originally posted by Teazer



And the English are obviously to blame for the fact that the US has a greater percentage of its population incarcerated than any other on the planet (if I understood the stats).
Yes they are, or did you forget that America and australia were both prison colonies and/or prison sentences? If you don't count the whole of Australia as a prison then yes we may have the highest percentage - I haven't looked at the numbers.

But more importantly out unjustly accused arent famous like the English. And Malory was falsely inprisioned before there ever was an America.....so yeah, invented it.
 

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Discussion Starter #96
jesus you boys really know history, i have no idea what youre talking about most of the time when you start on about history between UK OZ and USA.
 

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Discussion Starter #97
jesus you boys really know history, i have no idea what youre talking about most of the time when you start on about history between UK OZ and USA.
 

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quote:Originally posted by ukTony

jesus you boys really know history, i have no idea what youre talking about most of the time when you start on about history between UK OZ and USA.
and given your recent trouble apparently england didn't purge enough of its prisoners during the 18th century.
 

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quote:Originally posted by ukTony

jesus you boys really know history, i have no idea what youre talking about most of the time when you start on about history between UK OZ and USA.
and given your recent trouble apparently england didn't purge enough of its prisoners during the 18th century.
 

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Having lived in Scotland I'm not unaware of some of the English issues in history and from there I moved to Australia where I was often referred to as a Pommie, so yes, I get that, but it was 150-200 years ago. Australia managed to work out a better system that teh US though and they don't have a lot of people in prisons now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

The US has managed to convince people that we need politicians and other elected officials that are "tough on crime" in the belief that we can beat/frighten the crime out of people or that it acts as a deterrent. Doesn't seem to work, but nopolitican has teh balls to admit that and suggest any alternative - at least not in the mainstream at least.
 
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