Cafe Racer Forum banner
1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys.
I'm progressing nicely with my 2003 XT600e project but I need your combined wisdom about batteries.
The standard bike uses a 12v 8Ah but I would like to run either :-
a) a smaller battery or
b) dual/multiple batteries hidden under the tank (non-XT)

So is it possible (safe) to run batteries in fulltime parallel or series connection & if so which is best for my application ?

I don't know very much about power requirements but I think I need to keep up the CCA 135 cranking power for the electric start (later model with no kickstart),
I will be running,
LED lights for dip/main & rear
LED brake light
LED warning lights.
Horn
Electric start
Stock XT charging / reg / regulator

I am thinking either 2 x Antigravity Battery AG401 (antigravitybatteries-uk.co.uk) or 1 of these Antigravity Battery XPS SC-1 (antigravitybatteries-uk.co.uk)

I'm also considering using a Motogadget M-unit (not blue) & momentary buttons.

Cheers all
Phil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,787 Posts
Stock XT charging / reg / regulator is not suited to a lithium battery,
put a lead acid battery in it and you won't have a problem.

Lithium batteries are solid state they do not tolerate over-voltage charging even a little bit. Your charging system was designed for a lead acid battery that is very tolerant of poor voltage control, basically because a lead acid battery is water cooled.

Just because lots of people do it, that does not make it a wise thing to do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the advise, the problem is location. my XT is far from stock & I need a battery that can lie flat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,787 Posts
Thanks for the advise, the problem is location. my XT is far from stock & I need a battery that can lie flat.
Simple solution is to run it dead loss and plug it in when you are not riding.
Otherwise you need to upgrade your rectifier and regulator. Spend your money on that instead of the gizmo to rewire the bike if your electrics are still intact.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,787 Posts
My new bike came with a lithium battery, in the LED headlight and I think the stock wiring past the headstock is going to become a problem. I can only imagine what it's going to cost to replace it and I already told my dealer to order one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,787 Posts
btw: Important thing is not the spec of the battery you are replacing,
it's the quality of the power you are using to charge the new one. What is the power output of your bikes generator at idle? and at high revs? Then start calculating your loads based on how you altered the electrics.

Stick an oscilloscope on the existing bikes electric output for charging the battery and you will see what I am talking about with over voltage, compared to what the battery mfg. wants for their battery.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I'm starting from scratch with the wiring as none of the original stuff is present (except the reg/rec & starter solenoid), so will look at getting an aftermarket reg/rec that can deal with a bit of voltage variation, no access to an oscilloscope so sadly that's not an option.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,677 Posts
I'm starting from scratch with the wiring as none of the original stuff is present (except the reg/rec & starter solenoid), so will look at getting an aftermarket reg/rec that can deal with a bit of voltage variation, no access to an oscilloscope so sadly that's not an option.
The best reg/rec is a Series type. Polaris uses them on their RZR side by sides. The Shengdin SH775 is the one you want, but be careful, many of the aftermarket cheapie units look just like it but are still just shunt type rectifiers. Best bet is to buy one directly from a Polaris dealer, and you can get a harness lead from a Triumph Bonneville to plug right in. Here’s a description of the differences in reg/rec units:

Most OEM and aftermarket replacement RR's are shunt type. These have worked fine for years, but they tend to create heat, and heat raises resistance which creates more heat, and eventually results in failed components. Mosfet type rectifiers, like the ones that Yamaha put on the newer R1's are better because they more accurately control the excess current, but they still regulate the charging voltage by shunting, or dumping, the excess current to ground. A Series type regulatorrectifiers actually interrupts the circuit.
To illustrate the difference I give you this very simplistic illustration. Lets say your battery is a 5 gallon bucket that has a 1 inch hole in the bottom of it. You have a garden hose which represents the stator and rectifier portion of the reg/rec. As you fill the bucket (battery) up with water, some of the water drains out of the hole in the bottom. This is the electrical demand (lights, ignition, fans.....heated grips will cause a bigger hole). At low rpm...or with the spigot slightly open..., the water going in the bucket may just be able to keep up with the demand, but if you open the spigot more (or increase rpm) the bucket fills up faster than it is draining out. Once the bucket is full, the excess water flow has to be dealt with. This is how the RR types would deal with it:

1. A shunt type - Once the bucket is full, it dumps the water (current) onto the ground by overflowing

2. MOSFET type - When the bucket is full, you direct the hose to pour onto the ground. More precise and accurate, but still, current is going to ground and making mud (heat in the reg/rec). As the bucket drains, you direct the flow back to the bucket.

3. A series type - This hose has a sprayer attached to the end. When the bucket gets full, you release the trigger and the flow stops. When the bucket drains down a bit, you turn the hose back on.

This is a VERY crude depiction and is only to help visualize the process
The SH775 reg/rec from a Polaris Razor is a series type....but there are many aftermarket ones that claim to be a SH775 "replacement" but are actually shunt types in an SH775 housing. So if you buy one, buy a genuine Polaris part #4012941. It is a 35 amp rated RR and regulates at 14-15 VDC. You can buy a harness for a Triumph Bonneville, cut one end off and splice the harness into your stator wires and the positive and neg leads to your rectifier. The Triumph part# is T2500676. Below are pics of my application and a photo of the invoice for the parts from Bike Bandit. This set up should work as long as you have a 3 wire stator, and a 5 wire reg/rec. (In other words, I don't know how to make an old Honda with field wires on the stator, or reg/recs that have signal wires work with this set up)
 
  • Like
Reactions: goodpw and jcw

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,977 Posts
Antigrav 8 cell won't fit?
I have both the 4 cell and 8 cell. 2 of the 4 cells is larger than one 8 cell unless u lay them flat I guess.

The 4 cell cranks my trackbike gsxr750 most times except when "cold" like less than 50 deg. Then it might struggle until it heats up. But it has started the bike at 32deg as well.

I use my 8 cell on my '77 xs750. Starts it everytime. I have an Oregon Motorcycle parts regulator that keeps everything happy for last 4-5 years. Had to replace one battery not because of failure, but because it departed the bike after one too many potholes on Chicago's crappy streets.

I wouldn't hesitate to use antigrav battery with a good quality regulator...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,756 Posts
Thanks for the advise, the problem is location. my XT is far from stock & I need a battery that can lie flat.
AGM batteries can be mounted flat.

Here's what lithium batteries look like after an old school regulator fails. And yes, this one had built in battery management.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The best reg/rec is a Series type. Polaris uses them on their RZR side by sides. The Shengdin SH775 is the one you want, but be careful, many of the aftermarket cheapie units look just like it but are still just shunt type rectifiers. Best bet is to buy one directly from a Polaris dealer, and you can get a harness lead from a Triumph Bonneville to plug right in. Here’s a description of the differences in reg/rec units:

Most OEM and aftermarket replacement RR's are shunt type. These have worked fine for years, but they tend to create heat, and heat raises resistance which creates more heat, and eventually results in failed components. Mosfet type rectifiers, like the ones that Yamaha put on the newer R1's are better because they more accurately control the excess current, but they still regulate the charging voltage by shunting, or dumping, the excess current to ground. A Series type regulatorrectifiers actually interrupts the circuit.
To illustrate the difference I give you this very simplistic illustration. Lets say your battery is a 5 gallon bucket that has a 1 inch hole in the bottom of it. You have a garden hose which represents the stator and rectifier portion of the reg/rec. As you fill the bucket (battery) up with water, some of the water drains out of the hole in the bottom. This is the electrical demand (lights, ignition, fans.....heated grips will cause a bigger hole). At low rpm...or with the spigot slightly open..., the water going in the bucket may just be able to keep up with the demand, but if you open the spigot more (or increase rpm) the bucket fills up faster than it is draining out. Once the bucket is full, the excess water flow has to be dealt with. This is how the RR types would deal with it:

1. A shunt type - Once the bucket is full, it dumps the water (current) onto the ground by overflowing

2. MOSFET type - When the bucket is full, you direct the hose to pour onto the ground. More precise and accurate, but still, current is going to ground and making mud (heat in the reg/rec). As the bucket drains, you direct the flow back to the bucket.

3. A series type - This hose has a sprayer attached to the end. When the bucket gets full, you release the trigger and the flow stops. When the bucket drains down a bit, you turn the hose back on.

This is a VERY crude depiction and is only to help visualize the process
The SH775 reg/rec from a Polaris Razor is a series type....but there are many aftermarket ones that claim to be a SH775 "replacement" but are actually shunt types in an SH775 housing. So if you buy one, buy a genuine Polaris part #4012941. It is a 35 amp rated RR and regulates at 14-15 VDC. You can buy a harness for a Triumph Bonneville, cut one end off and splice the harness into your stator wires and the positive and neg leads to your rectifier. The Triumph part# is T2500676. Below are pics of my application and a photo of the invoice for the parts from Bike Bandit. This set up should work as long as you have a 3 wire stator, and a 5 wire reg/rec. (In other words, I don't know how to make an old Honda with field wires on the stator, or reg/recs that have signal wires work with this set up)
Great info & explanation even I can get my head around.
many thanks
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Top